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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:56 pm 
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Tracy, Larry thanks for the feedback.

Larry, I'm more concerned about the additive type of error i.e. showing something that was not there than I am about what they may have forgot (or didn't know about) to put in like the degaussing cables.

Tracy were there a lot of additive type of errors? Are the voice tubes and electrical lines, boxes and lighting fairly correct or should I take all of that with a grain of salt?

If the detail in the book is mostly correct I would want to add it in using something like the green stuff that gives you time to work with it (like clay) before it hardens. I would basically add some of the putty to the spot I want to enhance with this small detail and then use clay sculpting tools to remove putty to leave the electrical boxes and lines in place.

I have Stilwell's book and the Squadron book as well as the Floating Drydock Plans (unfortunately packed away somewhere) in addition to the Plans listed on your site Tracy. I do have a copy of Jeff's build log (which is really good) on word as a reference as well.

I also spent about a week going through this thread from the beginning to the current point before I actually created my login. I've also found this site to be a great resource with a lot of great and knowledgeable people on it.

Thanks again.


Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Franz wrote:
I was going back through the online version of the National archives and came across a photo that confirms there were only three 50 cal mg's in Arizonas fighting top. I don't know how I missed this before. I may have skipped it as most of the other Pearl Harbor photos of the Arizona under attack or still burning are of low resolution.

Franz


Franz,
Do you see 3 or 4 MG's up there? Now I'm not so sure that there was only 3 up there. Looks like there IS a fourth laying flat.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:19 pm 
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why would you have 3 mgs mounted on a 4 point platform but not have 1 mounted on starboard side. I mentioned about supposedly missing #4 mg here viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12942&start=2100


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:25 am 
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Jeff, in the photo you have above it looks like 4 as well, but not in the one I posted or in the over head shot.

The other question I have is that the KA PE upgrade kit comes with barrels for the 50 cal machine guns, but they look like the water cooled version. The ones in the photos do not look like they are water cooled. Or am I getting the scale wrong because of the distance from the photographer?

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:37 am 
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Dave, I think the contention was that there was not enough room for 4 MG's and their ammo boxes and still allow for practical fields of fire for all four machine guns. Also In the picture I posted the barrels were so high above the blister that the top of the fourth gun should have still been visible in the upright position. If it was flat as the object Jeff's photo then what you said would hold true about the angle masking it.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:57 am 
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Also, a possibility.

Realize that for maintenance on the small AA guns (50cal MGs and 20-mm) it was practice to remove the gun and either work on it onsite or in a shop. I have seen that done in quite a few photos during downtimes.

Also, all of the ship based 50-cal MGs were water cooled.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:31 am 
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Franz, during that time period they used water cooled jacketed .50cal mgs making the barrels appear fatter then in reality. the angle of your photo would preclude seeing that starboard mg. the gun tub drawing shows 4 mgs & is big enough for the 4 mgs, ammo & maybe an 8 man gun crew if that many.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:36 am 
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Dave, Rick

I appreciate the information on the Mg's in the birds nest. Rick I think your statement about removing for maintenance could explain some of the discrepancies in the photos and Dave I appreciate the confirmation of the water cooled jackets. I can then use the parts supplied with the KA upgrade kit.

Thanks.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Just taking a moment to remember all of those young men who gave their all those many years ago on this day.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:27 pm 
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supposedly my step-father had 2 cousins onboard that ship, if they lived or died because of the attack I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:07 pm 
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Franz wrote:
Just taking a moment to remember all of those young men who gave their all those many years ago on this day.

Franz

Here are a few of them! This is CDR Samuel Earle Johnson inspecting the men on the forward deck.
Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Location: EG48
My collection of Arizona documents is here. Regrettably I found nothing new for this year.

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"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Color footage of barbette #3 and the 3 large vents around the barbette. And it looks like the projection booth is still there.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Waldemar Góralski & Leszek Wieliczko's 3D book on the Arizona shows the cooling water lines on the 50 cal guns going to a black box, which I have to assume is a reservoir for the cooling water. The FDD plans, and others I have, show the lines going into the base of the mount. Stilwell's book has good picture of the gun, but unfortunately it doesn't show where the hoses go. Any thoughts as to which set up would be appropriate?

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Larry I found some information on the water cooled browning. I've included a couple of photos. Unfortunately all the ones showing it in action are close up and don't show where the water lines lead to. However I did find that they connect to a chest/pump. This would support the book showing square boxes down at the bottom.

Hope this helps.

Franz


Attachments:
File comment: Shows Navy 50 cal mg
WNUS_50cal-M2_MG_Navy_pic.jpg
WNUS_50cal-M2_MG_Navy_pic.jpg [ 14.53 KiB | Viewed 1456 times ]
File comment: Chest/pump where lines from MG attach to.
Untitled.png
Untitled.png [ 50.95 KiB | Viewed 1456 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Thanks Franz.
I found the same picture and also one in the Leeward publication labeled as taken on the Arizona which does show the hoses going into the mount base. That's the way I'm going to go. It just makes sense that the guns would be piped into the ship's water supply system.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:22 pm 
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When you refer to the "Leeward Publication" is this the book you are referring to:
"USS Arizona (BB 39) Ship's Data: A Photographic History
By Friedman, Norman
ISBN 10: 0915268280 / ISBN 13: 9780915268283" and is it one you would recommend having?

I thought about the lines being connected to the ships water supply too. It does make sense. The Chest/Pump would be used were a larger water supply would not be readily available.

That would be one of the additive errors I'm talking about if it shows small boxes connecting to the water lines in the 3-D book.

Is that picture you are referring to something that can be posted to this site?

Thanks.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:59 pm 
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The 50-cal MG, 1.1-in quad mount, and yes the 40-mm twin and quad mounts, were ALL water-cooled. A closed loop water system with a tank and pump to circulate the water were used with all of them. The water cooling systems were not the same however. Sometimes there was a single system for each gun/mount and other times there was a larger system for several weapons (normally this was for 50-cal guns rather than quad 1.1-in mounts) if they were close together.

As an aside, in correspondence for the FLETCHER class as the first units were being built in 1941, there was a large and LONG discussion about a shortage of circulation systems for the then planned quad 1.1-in mounts scheduled to be installed on them. This was before the 40-mm guns were declared ready for production and installation. There was a shortage because of the demand for quad 1.1-in mounts brought on by the King Board AA Improvement program to upgrade AA on ALL existing and new-built USN warships. The USN FLETCHER class program management team was desperately trying to get more circulation systems built to maintain the building schedule. What saved them was the 40-mm twin and quad mounts, with their own cooling system, production caught up with the FLETCHER building schedule and only three FLETCHERS needed the quad 1.1-in mounts installed.

PS: The author of "USS ARIZONA (BB-39) Ship's Data" book wasn't Dr Friedman, it was Robert Sumrall


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:29 am 
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So Rick you are basically confirming what Larry is saying

"and other times there was a larger system for several weapons (normally this was for 50-cal guns rather than quad 1.1-in mounts) if they were close together."

That the water cooled 50's on the birds nest had a common water system located somewhere beneath the birds nest (hence the lines going down into the deck by the base of the gun mounts.

Sorry about getting the author incorrect - I just cut and pasted that info in from another site and added in author by the name (that's what I get for assuming).

Is it a good reference to have on the Arizona?

Thanks

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:39 am 
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Franz wrote:
Quote:
That the water cooled 50's on the birds nest had a common water system located somewhere beneath the birds nest (hence the lines going down into the deck by the base of the gun mounts.


I dispute that statement. Do you have any documented or visual (picture) proof that this was in place? I don't think so. I've just carefully scanned over a similar bird's nest photo of BB-38 (hi-res photo 1942) and I could find no piping discernible going into/from the nest. The Browning water cooled machine guns (30/50 cal) were self contained units with a pump/cooler and short hose system included in order to be (obviously) portable. The picture you posted of the M3 pump/cooler was probably exactly what was located in the nest with it's machine gun mount.

I am searching for a copy of the Browning M1917 Machine Gun (hard copy books) or tech. manual for the water-cooled models which should verify this (USN Version) one way or another. Whether or not it can be found is another story...

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