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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Your post said ...

Sea Blue was a new paint used for tests, some cruisers & destroyers were evaluated in pre-war.

I'm just filling in that Sea Blue (5-S) was considered as a "standard" paint to use for camo schemes. True enough, evaluations were done by the Pacific Fleet (and likely the Atlantic Fleet, although they were the ones who adopted it first) of Sea Blue 5-S in the summer of 1941 intended as a replacement of 5-D. But the Fleets were doing evaluations of the various new camo schemes introduced in July 1941 AND of other proposed paints and schemes. Navy Blue (5-N) was derived as a darker version of Sea Blue that was considered to be a better paint for reducing aerial observation detection.

BuShips was chasing the tail of the Operation Commands about Camo paint from April 1941 onwards. The first schemes, Measures 1 through 6, used paints by and large NOT in the inventory. Even the same shade as Peacetime Gray was now to be a "flat" far less glossy paint. As an "interim" it was authorized to take the "Peacetime" Light Gray paint and mix a black paste with it to get a close 5-D match until pre-mixed and proper properties 5-D could be made and shipped out. But, this mix had some issues with being too glossy and maintaining its color (fading). Actually some observers in evaluations called 5-D "BLACK".

Ironically, by the time manufactured 5-D paint was available and shipped out, the operational commands wanted a lighter color saying 5-D was too dark. They first said that the experimental Sea Blue was the one they wanted. So that shade was adopted as one of the new standard paints with the newer camo schemes. So once again BuShips was trying to get these new paints made and distributed. Somewhere along the way someone at BuShips got smart and decided to have the new paints be based on a mix of two components, the WHITE base paint with the adhesion and wear properties desired and a BLUE tainting paste. So the new basic colors of 5-H, 5-O, and 5-S used the same paint mixes but in different ratios. This also allowed the Operational Commands to "play" with the color and not interrupt the BuShips supply chain like developing and keeping in the supply chain all new pre-mixed paints every time that they wanted a new camo scheme/color.

The Battle Fleet was actually painted in at least two different paints prior to December 1941 ... the Interim 5-D and the new formula 5-D. Ironically, by the time the new and better 5-D was being applied, it was already considered obsolete and production had ceased. By, December 1941, the Pacific Fleet was running out of 5-D to paint the battleships (the last holdouts) and they were having cruisers and destroyers "surrender" their supplies of 5-D "except for touch-ups".

Pressure was there for the Battle Fleet to switch to Sea Blue (or Navy Blue) because the supply of 5-D was being exhausted. IF (and when?) any of the battleships were painted in Sea Blue may never be known. The documentation chain about camo painting directions ceased after the attack. Any decisions and/or directives made in meetings prior to the week before the attack and in the process of being written in memos, have been lost as not important. Since the only difference between Sea Blue (5-S) and Navy Blue (5-N) was the ratio of tinting used, the switch to Navy Blue was done fairly quickly. By 16 December 1941, the Pacific Fleet felt that they could direct going to Navy Blue. So at some point the supply of the "NEW PAINTS", aka WHITE BASE and BLUE tinting were available at Pearl Harbor and the various USN Yards on the West Coast. I have no answer as to when the paints arrived. Some of the repainted to Sea Blue cruisers (and destroyers?), brought back supplies of Sea Blue to be applied to other sister cruisers prior to the attack.

My belief is that not many (if any?) of the battleships had been completely repainted to 5-S or 5-N prior to the attack. I also, think it is "possible" that some units had started to repaint. Some have argued that since USS ARIZONA was scheduled to return to PSNY for an overhaul the week after 7 December 1941, that they wouldn't have repainted her. But, documents that I came across clearly show that her overhaul had been pushed back for months due to delays with USS COLORADO's overhaul. That is why ARIZONA was getting prepped for her radar installation and other upgrades at PHNY on 7 December.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Posts: 107
Hello,
This is my first post after looking over all the posts from the last 12 and a half years. This is a great forum!
I’m a Navy Vet and an intermediate level modeler and did 1/700 scale waterline in the past.
I’m looking at doing the 1/200 scale Arizona and the wealth of information from this thread and the build threads is great.
I am disappointed that the kit has problems with the hull (and will probably be beyond my ability to fix) and that the pilot house is missing the front window (The 1/350 Banner kit has it).
I plan to do the ship as close to how she looked on the morning of December 7th 1941 prior to the attack. That includes doing the awnings which I spent a lot of time researching how they were rigged.
The Post by Steve Sobieralski on Wednesday June 01 2011 @9:58 am covered some of what I had found. The post was interested in where the large center tripod was positioned & attached on the deck.
What I discovered was that the line supporting the center of the awning ran through this large tripod and ended on a small tripod on turret 1 for the forecastle awning and on turret 4 for the stern awning.
The line drawings for the USS Pennsylvania show this small tripod on both turrets 1 and 4. The small tripod on the turret is also visible (If you look for it) on other battleship pictures of the period.
The other interesting thing I saw on the cleaned up HD film from the Japanese bomber approaching the Arizona (not yet directly overhead) is that canvas was also rigged along the rails under the stern awning.
I also found that the little antenna (with the arrow) on top of the AA copula had supporting thinner wires on either side of it (looking like upside down “L”’s). You can’t see it from the side, but is clearly visible in a short clip of welders cutting the fighting top supports.
As it will be at least a year before I can start on this I’ll defer on how I will paint it.

Great discussions!


Attachments:
File comment: The Canvased railing is especially clear towards the stern where the edge of the awning and edge of the canvased railing can be seen.
CanvasedRailings.png
CanvasedRailings.png [ 250.12 KiB | Viewed 2240 times ]
File comment: The center line passes through the large tripod and ends on the small tripod on top of the turret.
CroppedSmallTripodOnTurret.png
CroppedSmallTripodOnTurret.png [ 336.56 KiB | Viewed 2233 times ]
File comment: This is an off angle view of the antenna on the little copula showing the whole structure.
CloseUpOfAntenna2.png
CloseUpOfAntenna2.png [ 146.87 KiB | Viewed 2230 times ]


Last edited by Franz on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Just curious that I didn't see anything concerning the rings around the portholes on the hull of the 1/200 scale model of the Arizona. I may have missed it if there was.

When looking at photo's of the ship that would be about the same distance you would look at the model, the edge is very hard to see. In most cases the portholes look flush with the ship unless you see them at an angle or get a very close up shot.

I know this would be hard to fix, but I think flush portholes would be closer to correct then ones with big rings around them. Any other opinions or ways to fix this?


Attachments:
File comment: The top image is a close up from USS Wyoming and the bottom is the model
PeriodBB_PortholesComparedToModel_Portholes.png
PeriodBB_PortholesComparedToModel_Portholes.png [ 232.21 KiB | Viewed 2294 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Posts: 953
Hi Franz,
I posted this link a few pages back but here it is again. It gives an excellent look at her portholes and other details on her hull. There is definitely a very thin lip on the portholes. I didn't touch the portholes on my 1/200 kit because I didn't think it would make that much of a difference. I love the porthole with the bars on it. It shows us exactly where the brig was.
https://www.gettyimages.com/videos/5115 ... st#license


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Thanks Jeff, I definitely missed that one! It provides a great close up of hull detail near the torpedo blister. I've viewed a number of these videos, but didn't catch this one.

There are so many portholes and they are so small to begin with it would probably be a real pain to get them looking more accurate. As I'm probably still a year out from starting I have time to decide what if anything I will do about them.

To be honest with you I never was a rivet counter in the past (1/700 scale waterline) but your build which I read over very closely has inspired me to try to be one when doing the Arizona.

My approach will be to try and treat every logical sub-structure as a separate model. Now I'm just trying to get my research in order and your build and this thread filled a large number of gaps and confirmed a number of things that I saw as well.

I really want to get more into how day to day life was on board prior to and leading up to December 7th. If I get the chance I'd like to look at the collection at the University of Arizona some time.

Thanks again for your response.

Pete


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:26 am 
I haven't read all 99 pages of this topic, but has anyone ever built the Revell 1:426 scale model of the Arizona? I was an avid modeler in my younger days, but life caused me to pause for a while. when I got back into it, I was quickly shifted from plastic to wood, building wooden ship kits since 2009. temped to get back into plastic, I spotted the Revell kit...given the date on the box, I was duped into thinking that it was a new release. delving into the kit though, I quickly found that it was nothing more than the 1959 release of the Revell / Monogram kit......re-released with new box art.
the kit is not very good, having not too many parts and a lot of molded detail. molded railings.........ugh!........I'm not too familiar with PE, but I'm definitely gonna take a stab at it. the kit also supplies SOC seagull aircraft....fitting since I plan to model her around the 1935 time frame. I've seen her modeled with the Kingfisher aircraft, but I have not found any information that she ever had them on board {on the day of Pearl Harbor, no planes were on board}. even the assembly is going to make it a tough one.......with the way the mating surfaces cut along the portholes for the deck level build ups. I will continue to browse through the pages.....does anyone have a link for the Banner kit? I've never heard of it.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:22 am 
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The Banner kit is currently being sold under the Hobby Boss label, so you'll find that one more more easily than if you were to look up Banner. But don't expect much - it's basically an upscaled version of the Revell kit you have, porthole joints and all.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:10 pm 
thanks for the replies gents......sadly, half the pictures in what I've read so far have been missing. likely due to good 'ole photo bucket {when it kicked it's bucket} :D there is a very nice list of finished models in the beginning of this thread, so at least I have some visual aides. I was play'in around with the fore structure decks today, removing the pin marks and excess flash. I can't believe the Chinese didn't revamp the molds.....boy!......are they old! {1959}....very flashy.....corners are very crisp either.

thanks for the head's up Timmy.........if I'm correct, that's a 1:350 scale kit. at the moment, I'm working on the HMAS Vendetta, by Showcase Models. it's a nice enough model, but I'm not too keen on the smaller scales. bad enough that they make wooden decks for them, and not for this model....darn thing's been around long enough. I did a comparison on these two scales, since I bought the PE set for the HMS Hood, to supplement the Vendetta. I dry fitted the hull and decks for the Arizona and compared the railing height.......the 1:350 railings are like .5 mm taller {if that} than the molded railings on the Arizona. so, I will be using those railings for her. I wanted to use some of the PE doors........with the way the different levels assemble, it's going to be tough to do.

hello David.......I haven't scratch built with plastic in a dog's age :) I wish you well on your endeavors. I do a ton of it working on wooden ships......the instructions are so vague, so it's like I'm on my own anyway ;) I've done mostly fishing vessels.......but I have a project list that's a mile long. do I need to add another project to the list?......maybe not....but I believe that I've built this model before {thought it was a neat model back then}. as I have come to realize.......this kit was cutting edge back then.........the medium has made some advancements since then. I will likely limit my mods to what can be done without a lot of cutting....the minor stuff. I'll be the only one who will know the wiser, for the few that will ever see it. I bought the Tom's catapults and cranes PE, thinking that railings would come with it....my bad. ;) I'm looking for the paint scheme for the Seagulls........I recall seeing yellow on the tops of the wings.....is that correct, even though red was the division one color?

another thing I have a problem believing, is the blue color. does anyone think that fading and water reflection would be a factor in the bluish hue? I did do a small experiment, mixing matte aircraft blue with gunship gray, and that does produce a unique color {I may add more gray to it though}.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:05 am 
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A few questions about the Arizona.
First; I see in the picture that the paravane is located beside the barbette not mounted to it. Was this changed before her sinking?
Attachment:
635532096552823336-phxdc5-6i106k585k51dkdv665s-original.jpg
635532096552823336-phxdc5-6i106k585k51dkdv665s-original.jpg [ 46.45 KiB | Viewed 1922 times ]


Second;The rear staubord boat davit attaches to the outside "ledge" of the hull. I can't find a picture for the port side. Is this how it was in 1941? Because everything I've seen is that they were mounted up on the side of the hull. Sorry about the black arrows my computer wouldn't allow me to change the color!
Attachment:
USS_Arizona_after_1931_modernization_NARA_19-LC-19B-4 - Copy.jpg
USS_Arizona_after_1931_modernization_NARA_19-LC-19B-4 - Copy.jpg [ 93.68 KiB | Viewed 1922 times ]


Third; This dial thing I haven't seen before. What was it for and was it there at the time of her sinking?
Attachment:
USS_Arizona_after_1931_modernization_NARA_19-LC-19B-5 - Copy.jpg
USS_Arizona_after_1931_modernization_NARA_19-LC-19B-5 - Copy.jpg [ 123.15 KiB | Viewed 1922 times ]


Thanks for any and all advice!


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:06 am 
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Here is a picture of the starboard side dated 1940. It shows only the one davit mounted to the hull side.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/tn/013933v.gif

This is one of the port side in 1941 also showing only one davit mounted to the hull side.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/tn/013921a.gif

Hope this helps.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:10 am 
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I appreciate the help, But the sources supplied only show a pic that is super tiny. I tried looking at the navsource and it says the page doesn't exist. What am I doing wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:52 pm 
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prowannab wrote:
I appreciate the help, But the sources supplied only show a pic that is super tiny. I tried looking at the navsource and it says the page doesn't exist. What am I doing wrong?

I don't know why it does that, unless when I copied the picture it was from the list of pictures on the left side of the and not the actual picture itself. I will try again, but if it still doesn't work, I would go to the navsource website directly and not click on my links. When you come to the pictures I mentioned, you can click on them and they will enlarge making it a lot easier to see.

Larry

http://navsource.org/archives/01/039/013933v.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013921a.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:52 pm 
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The range clocks appear in photos dated August, 1941, and are absent from late October onward. I haven't seen any photos from September, so not sure when exactly they came off. Not just AZ; seems they took them off all the BBs about the same time - maybe figured that the bright white dials contrasted a bit too much with the exceptionally dark 5-D paint? And/or finally confident enough in the new gun directors to feel comfortable ditching them?

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:42 am 
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prowannab wrote:
Third; This dial thing I haven't seen before. What was it for and was it there at the time of her sinking?

The device is a range clock. At Jutland, many ships couldn't fire because all targets were obscured by smoke. But if a ship could have a way of seeing where the next ship ahead or behind was shooting, they could match range and bearing and join in. Obviously, this was "volume" fire rather than accurate targeting. The bearing was "transmitted" by marks on the turrets, as seen in this shot: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014357.jpg Note the markings on turrets 2 & 3. Also note the range clock on the cage mast. The range clock had two hands, and between them transmitted an approximate range to target. So bearing was obtained from the turret and range from the clock. As spotter aircraft became more available, the need for the turret markings and range clocks diminished. Ultimately, radar made all of it obsolete.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:52 am 
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I've noticed some other details on the high resolution photo of the bridge. The railings around the 14" gun director are covered in canvas and the tripods for the fighting tops have what look like electrical conduits running up their sides. In the last photo taken of the ship on 18 January 1941 these details are not visible both because of the angle the photo was taken and the lower resolution of the picture. The post Pearl Harbor photos don't show anything either probably due to the huge explosion and fire. Any one know more about if these details were still present on December 6th 1941?

Thanks

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:39 am 
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I do appreciate everyone's help! After looking at more pics, I think these boat davits were temporary for her 1931 modernization. Thoughts?
Attachment:
USS_Arizona_after_1931_modernization_NARA_19-LC-19B-1 - Copy.jpg
USS_Arizona_after_1931_modernization_NARA_19-LC-19B-1 - Copy.jpg [ 28.43 KiB | Viewed 1934 times ]


Any thoughts on the paravane?


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:54 am 
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The Boat Davits were a common feature on both sides of USS ARIZONA and her sister in the 1930s. They were not temporary then. However, with the King Board Air Defense Improvements program, quad 1.1-in mounts were to be located alongside the #3 Turret on the main deck. The boats that were stowed there and the davits would be in the way. One of the actions required in the ADI program was reducing the number of boats to clear fields of fire and to reduce top weight as compensation for increased AA guns and shielding bulwarks. Life rafts were added as well. Even though USS ARIZONA didn't have the quad 1.1-in mounts installed during her last overhaul, due to non-availability of mounts, all of the interfaces for them and the "tubs" were installed. The plan was that once the quad 1.1-in mounts were available, they could relatively quickly be installed. PHNY was authorized to do that kind of work, so no PSNY yard period was required.

The smaller davits used for the gangways were actually likely removable types so that the gangways could be setup at multiple locations on the ship. On most ships, even destroyers, there were multiple davits (or call them small cranes) utilizing for various lifting tasks. They normally were stowed away along a bulkhead while not in use.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:47 am 
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Thanks Rick. What I was referring to was the longer davits that sat on the edge of the hull instead of being mounted to the hull. The only pics I can find these longer davits is from her 31 refit.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:26 pm 
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I have scanned several images of USS ARIZONA and USS PENNSYLVANIA at NARA with these boat davits all through 1930's.

See attached images. The sisters had slightly different boat davit designs and different locations.

USS ARIZONA ... this same photo on Navsource is dated as September 1936, the boat davits are quite visible.

Image


USS PENNSYLVANIA dated August 1935, the boat davits are visible, only they don't go down to the ledge.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:30 am 
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Does anyone know what the vertical tube like object just to the left of the mainmast tripod is? It appears to be attached to the back wall of the vegetable locker, but it could be something in front of it. I haven't seen it in any other pictures.

Larry

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013921a.jpg


Last edited by lgmccauley on Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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