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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Yeah, it was speakers. It was moved around. In this case it was at the stern of the ship on the port side. You can see a little bit of it in the Wilson/Kidd photo that I posted. That is the stern Aircraft Crane showing above Wilson's head with the speakers to the far right.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:53 pm 
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Thanks Jeff. I did notice that. I also noticed that the stern aircraft catapult was run athwartship (with rows of sailors in front of it).

On a separate note I have a close up of the Arizona during the 30's modernization showing a lot more detail in the observation deck along the smoke stack just below the searchlights. I'd like your take on what I think I'm seeing and also how much of it you think was still there in 1941. I circled the points of interest and numbered them. I only have conjectures on some of the items and can confirm the identity of only one item.

1. unknown
2. I think its a black board for passing information from one watch to the next
3. I think this may be a ship's daily bulletin board
4. Unknown
5. Unknown
6. I'm fairly sure this is a chair for the officer on watch
7. This is the ladder that goes up along the side of the stack up through to the searchlight platform (only confirmed item)
8. This could be just a defect in the photo or the tip of one of the voice tubes
9. Unknown
10. looks like a pipe of some type. It does not extend below the observation platform but does go up past the searchlights

On some of the smaller "unknows" I'm wondering if any could be coiled up sound powered phones for enlisted "talkers" on the observation platform. I'm not even sure if Arizona had sound powered phones in 41.

There's a lot going on in what normally is a blank space (except for the ladder) on the model. I may include at least the items I have an idea on to add interest.


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File comment: Close up of Observation Platform (below searchlights) along side of smoke stack just after 1930's modernization circled and numbered.
CroppedSmokeStackNumbered.jpg
CroppedSmokeStackNumbered.jpg [ 167.28 KiB | Viewed 1772 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:41 am 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
Franz, et al -

Sound powered phones were indeed employed in the '30s on board USN vessels. Whether or not there were watches stationed in these areas while the ship was at sea is IMHO debatable. I would question "why?" - a copy of the ship's Watch & Station Bill could answer your question.

I did similar modeling of the 08 Level At Sea Command Station on my NEW JERSEY (1:200) scale and to be honest, detailing all these extremely tiny items such as chart table, various bulkhead dials & boxes, etc. is almost a waste of time - had I NOT left the canvas awning cover off, it would never have been seen by anyone looking at the model.

In the case of these areas on either side of the stack on my 1:200 scale PENNSY, I plan to do minimal interior detailing as it won't been seen under normal condition - unless a midget happens by and gets into the case!

In the matter of the .50 Browning Water Cooled MG's, here is an official publication illustration of the version probably used on these ships:
Attachment:
Pg. 82 MG Illustration & Description.JPG
Pg. 82 MG Illustration & Description.JPG [ 115.84 KiB | Viewed 1747 times ]

As for the so-called "sticks" as you refer to them, I can only speculate that these are some sort of training aid for practice drills. Without incurring wrath & ire amongst the modeling elite, I seriously doubt that adding all this extraneous detail (hoses, etc.) at this scale would prove positive in the overall appearance. The water pump/tank is only an 8 gal. container, quite tiny in this instance. However, I may take up the challenge (since the gauntlet has been cast) and fashion one of these mounts just to see what it may look like, and then decide whether modeling 8 of these for my PENNSY will be appropriate, or simply fashion the MG on it's yoke mount and leave it at that.

In spite of having ideas of detailing everything that may have been installed, I am realizing that some precaution must be taken given the actual size & scale of the model at hand and whether such items are really necessary. But, I guess this is a personal judgement call.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:19 pm 
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HMSIII

I appreciate the feedback. Also thanks for the information on sound powered phones.

I figure adding some detail to the Observation platform along the stack would work as it has very large open areas and a lot of the detail would be visible

As for the time it would take to super detail, well that's one thing I have a lot of. In my case it's more about the Journey than the destination.

Also having some experience in the past with sculpting I plan to use something like the green stuff (a clay like 2 part epoxy with a long work time) to sculpt in some detail along the exterior bulkheads where appropriate.

As for the MG's I've decided to go with the mounts showing the hoses going down to the base. I believe there was probably a shared reservoir for the four MG's on the birds nest in some void area just below the birds nest.

I don't think they would have cluttered up the limited space with 4 small hand crank pumps in the birds nest. Just my opinion. Also why would they have made naval mounts for this gun that used an internal water source of some kind and then not use them in what would be to me anyway an obvious situation.

Finally I'm not part of that modeling elite (far from it) and believe the amount of detail a person wants to add in is their choice. I've seen a lot of very good models with less detail. In model railroading we have a saying at the club. It doesn't have to be perfect it just has to look good from 3 feet away (the usual viewing distance).

Finally even if I add some detail that is hard to view I'll know it's there. So part of this is just for me i.e. the self satisfaction I'll get from adding it in.

When I was building 1/700 scale ships fast and dirty without the attention to what detail you could get at that scale I was more interested in these ships in formation than just any individual one. So I guess working in 1/200 scale seems really large to me.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:03 pm 
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Well it's been quiet on the At Em Arizona thread since before Christmas so I thought I would wish everyone a Happy New year and bring in 2019 with a screen shot of a youtube on Pearl Harbor that showed a ship with an interesting paint scheme. This was part of the film that showed ships prior to the attack. The link to the youtube is below and I attached the screenshot. It's a close up so I could not tell if it was a BB or not.

I would have thought a primer would have been a different color.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD7dh6lCYpg

Franz


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File comment: Interesting paint color for the cleat.
Cropped1.jpg
Cropped1.jpg [ 47.07 KiB | Viewed 1628 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:36 pm 
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Just a quick bit of info, the screenshot is from 2:44 into the movie.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 am 
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I guess I missed these tan cleats at 2:23 into the youtube. The screen shot is attached.

Franz


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File comment: Unknown BB
BB With tan cleats.jpg
BB With tan cleats.jpg [ 44.57 KiB | Viewed 1616 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:16 pm 
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If I'm to guess correctly, this is the California during repairs at PH in June of 1942. This is either right before or after her undocking from the drydock. Chad

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:31 pm 
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Correct. It is California on June 7, 1942 as she was leaving the drydock. Most of her had been painted into Sea Blue but a few spots like the yellow primed chock still had to be painted.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:29 pm 
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Well that's what I get for assuming. I forgot that a lot of the shows these youtubes originate from splice clips in from the war without any regard to sequence. Just so they have something to fill air time with.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:25 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
do not think primer has a gloss finish in it.


Well, I use the term "primer" loosely. It was Zinc Chromate.
"Zinc chromate’s main use is in industrial painting as a coating over iron or aluminum materials.[8] It was used extensively on aircraft by the US military, especially during the 1930s and 1940s. It is also used in a variety of paint coatings for the aerospace and automotive industries.[9] Its use as a corrosion-resistant agent was applied to aluminium alloy parts first in commercial aircraft, and then in military ones. During the 1940 and 1950s it was typically found as the "paint" in the wheel wells of retractable landing gear on US military aircraft to protect the aluminium from corrosion. This compound was a useful coating because it is an anti-corrosive and anti-rust primer.[8] Since it is highly toxic, it also destroys organic growth on the surface. Zinc chromate is also used in spray paints, artists’ paints, pigments in varnishes, and in making linoleum.[5]"


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:55 am 
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Sorry David, but Zinc Chromate was extensively used as a primer onboard ships while at sea on worn or rusted areas. Ships were limited on how much regular paint they could have onboard because of fire risk. Zinc Chromate was used to protect surfaces until a topcoat could be applied where top coat paint supplies were available.

And, YES Zinc Chromate was on the glossy side when freshly applied.

This link shows USS COTTEN (DD-669) in late summer 1945 with Zinc Chromate primer applied in many locations and is quite glossy.

... https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 92-KN.html ...

These images show Zinc Chromate that has "aged" some.

The first image below and a closer crop view, is from LIFE images and shows USS NICHOLSON (DD-442) in March 1943 during a convoy run to North Africa.

The last image is a close up crop of USS ERBEN in May 1945, showing extensive use of Zinc Chromate. Some of which is getting worn off itself.

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:53 am 
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Wow, this thread has been very quiet for quite some time. I had to go down 17 positions to find the At Em Arizona link. It was just below "Lifebuoys, derricks and gun covers".

Isn't anyone currently working on a model of the Arizona?

Well I may get a little more done despite the turmoil at home with downsizing as I now have a semi-permanent place to work on the 1/200 scale model. It's 43" x 29" in size.

Right now I'm learning how to use the blue stuff to make molds of the port holes (that aren't warped) so that I can make copies to replace the ones that are (on the bow and on the curves just below the main deck at the bow end and at least one porthole on each side of the curve at the stern end).

It's a start. I'm still trying to figure out how much of the hull I plan to modify. It will probably be based on how obviously noticeable it is like the port holes and the openings for the propeller shafts. This doesn't include the details like the keel plates etc. that everyone adds and which I will be adding as well.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:34 pm 
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Hi Franz,
I’m about 90% done on my 1/350 Arizona. I was making great progress on her but then got sidetracked by the desire to scratch build a 1/700 USS Argonne seen in these pics. This has been about a two week project and should be done this weekend then I’ll finish up Arizona and get her on a water base with Vestal next to her.
Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:42 am 
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Jeff,

Good to hear from you. You did do a 1/200 scale version of the Arizona didn't you? I like your picture of the 1/350 scale model, especially the treatment of the casement guns. What did you use for the rolled up canvas covers? Also is this a Banner/Trumpeter kit? If so I know those came with the bogus casement "turrets" not individual 5" 50 cal guns. If that's the case are these guns 3-D printed versions?

PS Good lookin' scratch build!

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 am 
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Yeah, I did a 1/200 Arizona. I’m doing this one as part of a diorama. I find myself wanting to add as much detail to it as my 1/200 kit but my eyes and patience can barely handle tiny detail these days.
As far as the kit goes, it’s a Hobby Boss hull. Everything above that is either scratch built or 3D printed parts. I completely rebuilt the case mate bulkheads and all the teak decking. I think I simply used small diameter styrene rod for the rolled up canvas above the case mate gun openings.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:26 pm 
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Dave, thanks for the correction. My illness plays havoc with my memory.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:17 pm 
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Jeff,

My apologies. When I responded to Dave's post about getting the caliber wrong I didn't even see your reply! It really looks good. I know your put a lot of detail on the 1/200 scale model you built. That was an awesome build! I don't think I'd be surprised at all if this one came out as good!

I had the 1/350 scale Trumpeter model. I had bought it back in the 90's (soon after it first came out) when there were no 3-D printed parts or wood decks available. I knew then that the casement guns were not turrets like what came with the model. I was going to use the 3" guns off the Lindburg Gato sub model to replace the turrets that came with the Arizona kit. They looked close to their 5" cousins and were about the right size for a 1/350 model to represent 5" guns.

Bottom line I never really started on the model because of work and by the time I got back to it my eye sight had gotten worse and I always had short stubby fingers and now they are fatter and more arthritic. So I sold it and got the 1/200 scale model with the wood deck and extra PE sets.

It is still going to be a slow build but at this scale I can see more of what I'm doing!

PS I actually still have the Gold Medal Model PE set for the 1/350 scale Arizona. I didn't end up selling it with the kit. I do have it listed locally on Craigs List. It takes longer to sell but there are no hassles with shipping and extra costs like on Ebay.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:04 pm 
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Came across some film footage of the wreck that I had not seen before. The film is backwards so we are looking at her starboard side with the aft mooring quay in the lower left of this still. On the port side there is USS Navajo again looking very light compared to Arizona.
To the right of the mooring quay, quite a bit of the starboard gun tub is still above the water.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:50 pm 
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Jeff, really looks interesting. Can you pass the link to the movie?

Thanks

Franz


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