The Ship Model Forum

Dave, Rick

I appreciate the information on the Mg's in the birds nest. Rick I think your statement about removing for maintenance could explain some of the discrepancies in the photos and Dave I appreciate the confirmation of the water cooled jackets. I can then use the parts supplied with the KA upgrade kit.

Thanks.

Franz

Just taking a moment to remember all of those young men who gave their all those many years ago on this day.

Franz

Here are a few of them! This is CDR Samuel Earle Johnson inspecting the men on the forward deck.

My collection of Arizona documents is here. Regrettably I found nothing new for this year.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Color footage of barbette #3 and the 3 large vents around the barbette. And it looks like the projection booth is still there.

Waldemar Góralski & Leszek Wieliczko's 3D book on the Arizona shows the cooling water lines on the 50 cal guns going to a black box, which I have to assume is a reservoir for the cooling water. The FDD plans, and others I have, show the lines going into the base of the mount. Stilwell's book has good picture of the gun, but unfortunately it doesn't show where the hoses go. Any thoughts as to which set up would be appropriate?

Larry

Larry I found some information on the water cooled browning. I've included a couple of photos. Unfortunately all the ones showing it in action are close up and don't show where the water lines lead to. However I did find that they connect to a chest/pump. This would support the book showing square boxes down at the bottom.

Hope this helps.

Franz

Thanks Franz.
I found the same picture and also one in the Leeward publication labeled as taken on the Arizona which does show the hoses going into the mount base. That's the way I'm going to go. It just makes sense that the guns would be piped into the ship's water supply system.

Larry

When you refer to the "Leeward Publication" is this the book you are referring to:
"USS Arizona (BB 39) Ship's Data: A Photographic History
By Friedman, Norman
ISBN 10: 0915268280 / ISBN 13: 9780915268283" and is it one you would recommend having?

I thought about the lines being connected to the ships water supply too. It does make sense. The Chest/Pump would be used were a larger water supply would not be readily available.

That would be one of the additive errors I'm talking about if it shows small boxes connecting to the water lines in the 3-D book.

Is that picture you are referring to something that can be posted to this site?

Thanks.

Franz

The 50-cal MG, 1.1-in quad mount, and yes the 40-mm twin and quad mounts, were ALL water-cooled. A closed loop water system with a tank and pump to circulate the water were used with all of them. The water cooling systems were not the same however. Sometimes there was a single system for each gun/mount and other times there was a larger system for several weapons (normally this was for 50-cal guns rather than quad 1.1-in mounts) if they were close together.

As an aside, in correspondence for the FLETCHER class as the first units were being built in 1941, there was a large and LONG discussion about a shortage of circulation systems for the then planned quad 1.1-in mounts scheduled to be installed on them. This was before the 40-mm guns were declared ready for production and installation. There was a shortage because of the demand for quad 1.1-in mounts brought on by the King Board AA Improvement program to upgrade AA on ALL existing and new-built USN warships. The USN FLETCHER class program management team was desperately trying to get more circulation systems built to maintain the building schedule. What saved them was the 40-mm twin and quad mounts, with their own cooling system, production caught up with the FLETCHER building schedule and only three FLETCHERS needed the quad 1.1-in mounts installed.

PS: The author of "USS ARIZONA (BB-39) Ship's Data" book wasn't Dr Friedman, it was Robert Sumrall

So Rick you are basically confirming what Larry is saying

"and other times there was a larger system for several weapons (normally this was for 50-cal guns rather than quad 1.1-in mounts) if they were close together."

That the water cooled 50's on the birds nest had a common water system located somewhere beneath the birds nest (hence the lines going down into the deck by the base of the gun mounts.

Sorry about getting the author incorrect - I just cut and pasted that info in from another site and added in author by the name (that's what I get for assuming).

Is it a good reference to have on the Arizona?

Thanks

Franz

Franz wrote:


I dispute that statement. Do you have any documented or visual (picture) proof that this was in place? I don't think so. I've just carefully scanned over a similar bird's nest photo of BB-38 (hi-res photo 1942) and I could find no piping discernible going into/from the nest. The Browning water cooled machine guns (30/50 cal) were self contained units with a pump/cooler and short hose system included in order to be (obviously) portable. The picture you posted of the M3 pump/cooler was probably exactly what was located in the nest with it's machine gun mount.

I am searching for a copy of the Browning M1917 Machine Gun (hard copy books) or tech. manual for the water-cooled models which should verify this (USN Version) one way or another. Whether or not it can be found is another story...

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

The water circulation systems was closed-loop, not connected to a ship's water water supply pumping system.

The two attached images are from the BIW DD445 class Engineering Drawings microfilm copy of the original water circulation system drawing planned for the FLETCHER class. The circulation system for the four 50-cal MGS that were "planned" to be located forward of the bridge at the 01 deck level behind 52 mount has been cross-hatched as no longer part of the design. The design of circulation system for the quad 1.1-in mount installed on DD-449, 450, and 451 remains on this drawing. There was one system and tank for the group of four 50-cal MGs. I don't know how the circulation system was installed in the "birdbath" 50-cal MGs position, but suspect it would be similar. These drawings are hard to read and see in places, but there was a 45-Gal tank for the water. The pump was a "Government Furnished" item and wouldn't appear on these drawings.

There were several different mounts for 50-cal MGs and the water hoses sometimes entered the mount at the top or went to the floor. At the bottom is an image of 50-cal MGs installed onboard USS ENTERPRISE. I assume that the water tank was placed below decks or otherwise out of the gun crews feet.

Guys,
I don't know what I was smoking when I commented about the picture in Leeward's book. I looked at it again and it was a generic picture of the 50 cal gun that did show the hoses going into the mount base, but it was not tagged as the Arizona as I said. The picture I was talking about, that was taken on board BB39, was in Stilwell's book on page 212. The hoses are not connected. I was looking at all different sources at the time and I guess I got mixed up. Not hard to do at my age.
As far using the Leeward book as a reference, there really isn't that much in it of value. A better source is Squadron/Signal book The USS Arizona by David Doyle, a Squadron At Sea book. Lots of pictures. By the way, both of you are correct in regards to the author. Freidman and Sumrall were both listed as authors along with, Arthur Baker and Arnold Lott.
At this point, I'm not sure from the discussion, if the hoses went to the base or to a portable tank like the one I originally mentioned when I posed the question. I guess we'll find out, hopefully.

Larry

Larry, thanks for you opinion on the book. I'll skip it then. I already have the Squadron/Signal book The USS Arizona by David Doyle and the Stillwell book and will be getting the 3-D book for Christmas.

BB62Vet the statement of mine that you quoted was a clarification of what I was asking (as in question) about Ricks post. I was not making a statement of fact. I also did not mean to imply that the hoses went into a ship-wide water system, just that it went to some reservoir located somewhere in the ship.

Per Rick's follow up post it sounds like this could be the case. Why have 4 portable chest/pumps in what would have been permanent mountings (at least till the next in port upgrades). At this point I'm still on the fence as to hoses going into the chest/pumps or hoses going into the deck at the base of the mounts.


PS still being a relative newbie on this site can someone tell me how to do those quotes from another post?

Thanks

Franz

Franz,

From the FLETCHER class drawings, it was stated that for FOUR 50-cal MGs, a 45-Gal tank was required. That tells me that each MG required 10-12 Gallons of water (I wondered if they used a coolant additive as well?) for cooling. I doubt that they ever used "portable" water tanks and the pump would need to be attached to something and have electrical power for it to operate. Almost every gun on almost every USN ship in WWII, required some sort of interfaces to the ship. Even 20-mm guns needed electrical power for the Mk 14 gunsight. Installing 50-cal MGs wasn't a simple install.

There were "mobile" 50-cal MG mounts, that probably had everything mounted on the cart needed to operate the gun. It has been awhile since I read about them in textual records, but I think that they had prepared positions for installing these. They were intended for temporary locations where removing them would be desirable for some onboard operations. If you look in this image of USS PENNSYLVANIA ... http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013801e.jpg ... on her fore deck are two of these guns. Why they still had 50-cal MGs onboard her in 1945, I don't know.

Also, in the design work for where and how to add 20-mm guns (along with the 40-mm guns) on these old battleships, they NEVER planned to install 20-mm guns in the birdbaths. The top weight concerns of the added weight for the 20-mm guns and ammo, was a prohibitive issue. Actually it was decided early on that the main mast tripods would have to go. Plus getting ammo atop those tripods from a clipping room would have been a chore.

David, thanks. I didn't see that till you pointed it out.

Franz

Rick thanks for the clarification. I did see a youtube video while researching this that showed someone at a gun range firing 200 rounds into a junk car with the portable version of this gun. They showed still photos in the youtube at the end showing the full mount, hoses and the Chest/pump. I don't remember seeing anything on how it was powered though. I'll have to go back and look at that.

I haven't committed fully but I'm leaning in your direction on how the mounts looked in the birdbath.

Franz

The youtube showing the 50cal mg firing 200 rounds was using a hand crank pump. This was an army setup (not Navy) but it was still interesting to watch. The link follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egsaVu2wgXM

I found the following images and thought they might be of interest for the discussion on the water cooled 50cal mg mounts on the Arizona.
I'm surprised the HASBRO GI Joe "Pearl Harbor Collection Series" looks so real.

Franz