The Ship Model Forum

Wonderful! Any chance I might see them non-lightened?

Really, really appreciate that! Thank you!

One of the things I've always wondered about in regards to her aft gun tubs was even though they were empty, did the backside have railing and steps? I added that detail to my kit not knowing for sure.
I knew that Nevada also had the same empty tub because she was refitted at the same time as 'Zona. If I could find a pic of hers that might tell me that Arizona's was the same way.
Well, I finally, after many years of looking found a couple of pics of Nevada's tub.




Now I'm wondering if I'm seeing the top of a Director platform right behind those tub railings.

Texas' raised quad 40mm tub on the air castles may provide some inspiration as well. The inboard open portion did have a railing but it did not completely protect the back:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013537b.jpg

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Hey all - just a heads up. I was able to get an interesting copy of Booklet of General Plans posted to my Arizona plans page. It appears to be a 1924 set that was used to plan out her 1929 modernization as there are penciled in details for the blisters and it shows very well the old details such as the cage masts and lower 5"/51 guns ghosted on more modern features. Lots of fascinating details to look over.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Question on the 5" 25 antiaircraft guns. Gun 7 on the starboard side, would that have been the fourth one, meaning the most aft?

I'm basing this on the assumption that the foremost one would have been #1, and that the odd numbered ones would be on the one side.

Thanks!

I'm scratch building a 1/192 Arizona in 1941 configuration and have found something I need clarification on. On all the plans I have, those being: FDD, the Polish BS, and Alan Chesley's drawings in Stilwell's book, all show a "t" shaped structure on the after deck level below the vegetable locker. It also shows up on Tracy's research website on sheet three of 1941 Booklet of General Plans. The port side is labeled as a locker, whereas the starboard side is not identified. The problem comes in when you look at pictures of Don Preul's and Jeff Sharps' Trumpeter models, the structure I am referring to doesn't show up. I am extremely in awe of Jeff's and Don's research on the Arizona, but I just want to get this right. It's hard to see in these pictures, but if you look really hard I think you will see what I am talking about. Compare the picture taken in 1936 versus the others taken in 1940 and Jan '41. The vertical line of the vegetable locker in the 1941 picture extends all the way down to the after deck level at the platform that was added to the sides of the vegetable locker. This would indicate that a structure is there. I would really appreciate any input that anyone has.
Thanks

Larry

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013922z.jpg (1936)
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/tn/013933v.gif (1940) Don't know why this picture is so small.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013921a.jpg (1941)

Hi Larry,
Thank you for the kind words. I see exactly what you mean in the 1941 pic. I'm not convinced yet that that is what we are seeing though. The motor launch rack is in the way preventing a good look at it. It's definitely worth further investigation. This whole area was the biggest challenge for me on my build. It was a very busy area so there's not a lot of clean shots of this area. Notice in the other pic you posted the top of the vegetable locker. You can clearly see the steel "lip" around the top of the entire structure, separating it from the rest of the boat deck. You can even see railing on the lip that butts up against the boat deck. The deck of the veggie locker was not teaked.
Another thing I missed was that the bottom of the veggie locker does not butt up against the bulkhead where the deck breaks. Notice there is a passageway there connecting port and starboard sides.
Jeff

Jeff,
Thanks for the response. I agree it does require more investigation. The problem is that there are only so many pictures out there taken during the 1940-41 era. I have looked and looked through all the National Archives pictures available on the web and of course Stillwell's book. Have you found any other source for information. Are there videos of this time period?

For some reason the 1940 picture I attached before came out small and I don't know why. I have repeatedly tried to redo , but to no avail.
Thanks again.

Larry

Larry,

This is an interesting quandary. I don't know if this will help, but here are three clips of the three different levels of the same area on PENNSYLVANIA. This is from her 1931 refit. I scanned these drawings at NARA in 2016 and hopefully they may shed some light on your question (or not !).

I have attached these from the lowest deck (after main deck) to the highest (last attachment):




Hope this aids in your build!

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Thanks a lot Hank.
The "Gear Lockers" are what I am talking about. What I need to know is did they go from the deck all the way up to the underside of the vegetable locker? I'll look at pictures of the Pennsylvania and hope there are some clear shots of that area.

Larry

I believe they didn't go all the way up according to Brian O'Connor (Navy diver who took part in some of the survey dives). As they were lockers, they weren't "structural" and were also mounted a bit above the wood deck.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Gear Lockers!!! OK, now I know what you're looking for!!!! I'll revisit the PENNSY elevations and see what I can find. I agree w/Tracy in that they would be "equipment" as opposed to something that's "structural" or part of the ship.

Edit - The elevation views do NOT show the Gear Lockers, but I've got a slew of photos so that may show something....

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Larry,

Here is a clip from an overhead view of PENNSY in 1934 - it does show the Gear Lockers, but not up close. They DO appear to be mounted on some type of raised base, but "what base" is the question!



If I find anything more supportive in this area, I'll post it!


Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

This drawing suggests that the sides do extend all the way down to the deck.

Larry,

Once again - PENNSY as of her 1931 plans:

Here is the elevation view of that area, 1st is the exterior view and the 2nd is the centerline cut thru view:


As you can see, the veg. lockers do go all the way to the main deck, but also show the passage between them and the break in the deck.

Hope these help!

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

If you look at the main deck drawing of the Arizona on Tracy's website, it appears that bulkheads make up the lockers and the port side locker is smaller than the starboard side, unlike the Pennsy which shows them equal in size. This is why I think the plans I mentioned in my original post are correct in that they do go all the way up to the bottom of the overhanging vegetable locker.

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 85-3_a.jpg

When the ship was prepared for the memorial, the boat deck and casemate bulkheads were removed. This included removing the top half of the vegetable locker. If those wings on the sides of the veggie locker were still free floating during the attack like the original configuration shows in that 1st pic Larry posted then both wings would have been completely removed and would not show up on any of the Park Service drawings. The drawings show bulkheads on both sides attaching to the break in the deck bulkhead.
I am now leaning towards a modification took place at some point in her career that added those wing bulkheads that enclosed both sides. That portside locker that is labeled as such on the plans I believe now was inside the enclosure.

Also, we can't really use the Pennsylvania plans for help. Those gear lockers are on the top deck of her vegetable locker. Not at all on the same level as Arizona's ones in question.