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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Location: Newcastle, Australia
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the reference. That is an awesome video with excellent details shown. Makes me feel like I need to go bigger than 1/200 just to capture some of those features. :smallsmile:

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Underway: Trumpeter 1/200 USS Arizona

On the planning board:
1) Trumpeter 1/200 HMS Hood
2) Trumpeter 1/350 USS Texas


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:28 am 
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First post here so be gentle with the fireman :-)

I'm about to start a build of the Trumpeter 1/200 Arizona. I've done a survey of the subject and perused a few build logs and I'm minded to avoid the entire 'what colour' controversy by going for an early 1941 ship. But I've turned something intriguing up which I'd like some clarification on.

I've read Jeff Sharp's build log of his amazing example: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=154513

A couple of the photos there have me rubbing my eyes, asking myself if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing, and wondering: what colour were the turrets?

This period shot appears to show a turret that's considerably lighter than the superstructure:

Image

And this period shot makes them look almost white:

Image

I thought... OK, glare, old film not handling highlights... but then I saw a photo from Leftie of (presumably) his build:

Image

Which appears to show something very similar; turrets several shades lighter than superstructure.

But in actual documentation I can't find any evidence that turrets were painted a lighter shade (?? 5-L ??) or indeed any different shade to the rest of the vertical metalwork.

So what's the story? Is there something I've missed? Or just a trick of the light? Thanks for any pointers anyone can give!

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:31 am 
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Turrets photograph lighter due to their rounded, angular shape. #5 standard grey can look like white in photos. They are the same paint.
HTH John


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Hello...ello..ello...ECHO...echo...echo

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


Last edited by Tracy White on Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Is there an echo on here today?


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:00 pm 
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A few years back the USNI published an article by John F. De Virgilio titled "Seven Seconds to Infamy". This article described the two high level bombing attacks on the USS Arizona. He describes the five plane V formation of each bomb run and supplies a drawing of the location of all ten bombs that were dropped on Arizona and Vestal.

Image

In this article he credits Pilot Tadashi Kusumi and bombardier Shojiro Kondo for the fateful bomb that destroyed Arizona. In his drawing, he circles the 2nd plane in the formation as being the plane to deliver said bomb.

Below, is another artists interpretation of the 1st bomb run on the stern of Arizona, then a crop of the very famous photo of these bombs exploding on and around the stern, then finally another cropped (not often seen) image from a high level bomber. In this last image things are a little bit tougher to make out due to the cloud cover but you can see that this image is also before Arizona exploded. In this photo you can still see the disturbance in the water where bomb #1 of the 1st bomb run hit. But the most interesting thing about this image is that there appears to be two bomb geysers in the water, one to the far left of this image and one to the far right. Assuming these geysers are from bombs #1 and #5 of the 2nd bomb run, we can now accurately plot the location of 4 of the five bombs. The other two known bombs landed on Arizona and Vestal.
Going back to the second photo, I marked the location of the geysers and the location of the bomb hits on Arizona and Vestal. If you equally space out the bombs, then the logical location of the unaccounted for bomb is in the water in-between the first geyser bomb and the Arizona bomb. This would indicate that the fateful bomb came from the 3rd (lead) plane in the formation, not the 2nd plane as De Virgilio suggests. The question I have now is...Who was in that 3rd plane?

Image
Image

There is no doubt in my mind this last photo was taken just an instant before Arizona exploded.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:21 am 
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Aloha All,
BATTLESHIP ARIZONA by Paul Stillwell (USNI 1989) was the initial presentation of the IJN bomb drops on USS AZ and USS VESTAL. I provided the IJN formations and John provided the splash analysis.

John had also done a dive on the ship as part of a Park Service dive...to measure the AFT holes. ALL were 'OUTGOING' except one 'INCOMING' (diameter was correct).

John then made his analysis "Seven Seconds to Infamy" for USNI PROCEEDINGS. He made an assumption on the formation ROTATION. There were TWO types of rotation...to bring the assigned/trained bombardier to the LEAD location. That bombardier was flying in the B5N in the #2 position (looking at your right hand's fingernails , this would be the index finger nail).

To move his plane to the lead position...one of TWO versions were used: 1) all five planes rotated...the thumb nail moved to the index finger position, etc or 2) just the three planes moved ...middle finger nail moved to ring finger while the index moved to the middle finger position. Hope this did not confuse you.

Of interest, the HIRYU leader who TRAINED the two bombardiers was Hirata MATSUMURA. John and I BOTH interviewed MATSUMURA in person. He used both versions in training, yet never confirmed which was selected by his two students. This threw our study into confusion for those who seemed to require to know "the dastardly evil person" to blame for the ship's demise. John chose one of the two formation changes.

NOW we come to the splash just off the port bow of USS AZ. The analysis made by your source has ignored that splash. This new study suggests that a fifth bomb hit far to starboard of USS AZ. Thus the evidence of that port splash should be addressed by your source. HTH

Oh, have you read my "Torpedoing Pearl Harbor", Military History mag, Dec 2001? All the torpedo planes are cited with the attack order and losses. Here are my latest articles:
http://www.flightjournal-digital.com/fl ... pg=48#pg48
http://www.flightjournal-digital.com/fl ... pg56Cheers,

David Aiken
student of 7 Dec 1941


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:31 am 
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Location: Yuma, Arizona
Jeff Sharp wrote:
Going back to the second photo, I marked the location of the geysers and the location of the bomb hits on Arizona and Vestal. If you equally space out the bombs, then the logical location of the unaccounted for bomb is in the water in-between the first geyser bomb and the Arizona bomb. This would indicate that the fateful bomb came from the 3rd (lead) plane in the formation, not the 2nd plane as De Virgilio suggests. The question I have now is...Who was in that 3rd plane?


I watched this show when it came out, but I found it online a while ago, Pearl Harbor Declassified. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2kcdos

If you go to about the 29:00 mark, they have some good images of the infamous Arizona exploding video, but that has been remastered to HD. Granted, the video in the link is not HD, but it is still an improvement over the old footage.

At one point, they are talking about the shape of the bombing runs, and they make the same conclusion as you. They state that it appears that 2 bomb splashes can bee seen before Arizona explodes, and that the 3rd (Center) plane dropped the bomb that made the fatal hit.

You can also see how the forward superstructure lifts up during the blast, then free falls back down to it's final position. Among other details, it puts into perspective how powerful the explosion really was.

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Current Project:
1:200 U.S.S. Arizona

Future Projects:
All of them!


Last edited by hondaman117 on Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Hi David,
I have a couple questions about the whole rotating thing but my main question is what evidence is there that any bombs fell in between both ships? Johns drawing claims that both the 1st and 2nd attack the 3rd plane managed to split the two ships. I don't recall reading any concussion damage on the port side of Vestal from a near miss. Also, given the location of the bomb hit on Vestal's stern, that would require a VERY tight formation for another bomb to land this close to the Vestal stern shot.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:40 pm 
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It's doubtful that the charges in the bombs would have caused any concussion damage from a near miss as they were armor piercing and not general purpose. Additionally, several vets on both Arizona and Vestal reported a torpedo hit and large column of water between both ships. See, "Torpedoing of the USS Arizona - Evidence in support of a torpedo hit.

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"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Hi Tracy, yes I'm very aware of the torpedo article and theory. My plotted bombs would support that theory. I would like to know what evidence David has that suggest that a bomb, not torpedo caused that splash if one did indeed occur. I persononally have not seen any photographic evidence that a bomb missed the ship on the port bow.
Also, lets not forget that the bomb that struck Vestal's stern penetrated completely through the ship and exited on the port side before exploding. Maybe this is the geyser the crews saw.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:59 pm 
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NO torpedo was directed at USS AZ or USS VESTAL. Closest torpedo hit removed the rudder of WEEVEE.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:35 pm 
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David,
I am definitely not in the "torpedo" camp. My argument here is that I do not believe that the lead plane bomb went in-between Ariz and Vestal. The spacing between that bomb and the Vestal bomb would basically be right next to eachother.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:18 pm 
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hondaman117 wrote:
At one point, they are talking about the shape of the bombing runs, and they make the same conclusion as you. They state that it appears that 2 bomb splashes can bee seen before Arizona explodes, and that the 3rd (Center) plane dropped the bomb that made the fatal hit.


Hi Nelson,
I have viewed this film numerous times and I continue to see only 1 splash on the starboard bow. I don't agree with them that you can see 2 in the footage. That doesn't mean though that there weren't 2 on that side of the ship. The one that I do see is indeed just something splashing into the water. It is not an explosion in the water. Is it my #2 bomb? I don't know. It's location matches up nicely with my plotted #2 bomb but why no explosion in the footage? Did this bomb not explode?


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:27 pm 
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Aloha Jeff,
Listening to Hirata Matsumura was wonderful. His description of how bombs could be moved from the VEE to closer together by the pilot movement gave me high regard to the experience of the pilot to bombardier.
HTH


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:48 am 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
hondaman117 wrote:
Did this bomb not explode?


Keep in mind that the water in the harbor was very shallow and was not armored. It's possible that the bomb was a dud or not triggered, or not triggered before it buried itself in the mud.

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"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:21 am 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
Hi Nelson,
I have viewed this film numerous times and I continue to see only 1 splash on the starboard bow. I don't agree with them that you can see 2 in the footage. That doesn't mean though that there weren't 2 on that side of the ship. The one that I do see is indeed just something splashing into the water. It is not an explosion in the water. Is it my #2 bomb? I don't know. It's location matches up nicely with my plotted #2 bomb but why no explosion in the footage? Did this bomb not explode?


Jeff,

I have the same feelings as you, it looks more like the mooring quay is what they refer to as the 2nd splash. At the 31:00 mark they show some close ups, and it almost looks like there is the remainder of a plume about even with the conning tower. However, for this to be a plume it would be out of line with the V pattern. Maybe somebody with more experience can tell for sure.

Could one plane have failed to drop its payload? Or another not likely but possible option, did two bombs land in the same area next to turret #2? That could explain the missing plume, but again would require the aim to be off.

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-Nelson
Current Project:
1:200 U.S.S. Arizona

Future Projects:
All of them!


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Interesting to consider that there may be an unexploded bomb from the salvo which sank the Arizona buried in the mud next to her. Wonder if there is a way to scan to see if it might be there?


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Aloha All,
Both unexploded torpedoes and bombs are still in the harbor. John DeVirgilio and I have been searching for several decades. I received three phone calls on 2 May 1991 upon discovery of a torpedo in the harbor. The location of this torpedo and three others were confirmed for the base EOD office files prior to the recovery of this particular torp. This torpedo was taken to a reef where a small satchel charge was exploded...the torpedo's warhead made a humongous hole in the reef and a 500 foot plume of water above the reef. The remaining portion of the torp was recovered and is exhibited at the ARIZONA Visitors Center. Thus the topic of ordnance in the harbor is a HIGH priority to the harbor EOD.
Cheers,
David Aiken


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:05 am 
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Aloha All,
Up in the night...yawn! The bomb hit "between" USS AZ and VESTAL (as shown among blue dots) is too far aft on the ships. This splash is often cited by witnesses as a 'torpedo hit'. In "Torpedoing Pearl Harbor" (Military History, Dec 2001)...the torpedo launches by pilot are given (none aimed for USS AZ)...with the help of PO1c Iwata, and his final launch in the harbor (USS OK) is nailed down and shown in a Kaga strike photo: NO torpedo streaks near USS AZ nor oil leaks from AZ show.

The splash is further cited as to the rear of VESTAL's stern: '...about FRAME 35, PORT SIDE...' of USS AZ.

Hope this helps position the blue dot,
Cheers,
David Aiken


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