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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:25 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
do not think primer has a gloss finish in it.


Well, I use the term "primer" loosely. It was Zinc Chromate.
"Zinc chromate’s main use is in industrial painting as a coating over iron or aluminum materials.[8] It was used extensively on aircraft by the US military, especially during the 1930s and 1940s. It is also used in a variety of paint coatings for the aerospace and automotive industries.[9] Its use as a corrosion-resistant agent was applied to aluminium alloy parts first in commercial aircraft, and then in military ones. During the 1940 and 1950s it was typically found as the "paint" in the wheel wells of retractable landing gear on US military aircraft to protect the aluminium from corrosion. This compound was a useful coating because it is an anti-corrosive and anti-rust primer.[8] Since it is highly toxic, it also destroys organic growth on the surface. Zinc chromate is also used in spray paints, artists’ paints, pigments in varnishes, and in making linoleum.[5]"


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:55 am 
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Sorry David, but Zinc Chromate was extensively used as a primer onboard ships while at sea on worn or rusted areas. Ships were limited on how much regular paint they could have onboard because of fire risk. Zinc Chromate was used to protect surfaces until a topcoat could be applied where top coat paint supplies were available.

And, YES Zinc Chromate was on the glossy side when freshly applied.

This link shows USS COTTEN (DD-669) in late summer 1945 with Zinc Chromate primer applied in many locations and is quite glossy.

... https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 92-KN.html ...

These images show Zinc Chromate that has "aged" some.

The first image below and a closer crop view, is from LIFE images and shows USS NICHOLSON (DD-442) in March 1943 during a convoy run to North Africa.

The last image is a close up crop of USS ERBEN in May 1945, showing extensive use of Zinc Chromate. Some of which is getting worn off itself.

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:53 am 
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Wow, this thread has been very quiet for quite some time. I had to go down 17 positions to find the At Em Arizona link. It was just below "Lifebuoys, derricks and gun covers".

Isn't anyone currently working on a model of the Arizona?

Well I may get a little more done despite the turmoil at home with downsizing as I now have a semi-permanent place to work on the 1/200 scale model. It's 43" x 29" in size.

Right now I'm learning how to use the blue stuff to make molds of the port holes (that aren't warped) so that I can make copies to replace the ones that are (on the bow and on the curves just below the main deck at the bow end and at least one porthole on each side of the curve at the stern end).

It's a start. I'm still trying to figure out how much of the hull I plan to modify. It will probably be based on how obviously noticeable it is like the port holes and the openings for the propeller shafts. This doesn't include the details like the keel plates etc. that everyone adds and which I will be adding as well.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:34 pm 
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Hi Franz,
I’m about 90% done on my 1/350 Arizona. I was making great progress on her but then got sidetracked by the desire to scratch build a 1/700 USS Argonne seen in these pics. This has been about a two week project and should be done this weekend then I’ll finish up Arizona and get her on a water base with Vestal next to her.
Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:42 am 
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Jeff,

Good to hear from you. You did do a 1/200 scale version of the Arizona didn't you? I like your picture of the 1/350 scale model, especially the treatment of the casement guns. What did you use for the rolled up canvas covers? Also is this a Banner/Trumpeter kit? If so I know those came with the bogus casement "turrets" not individual 5" 50 cal guns. If that's the case are these guns 3-D printed versions?

PS Good lookin' scratch build!

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 am 
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Yeah, I did a 1/200 Arizona. I’m doing this one as part of a diorama. I find myself wanting to add as much detail to it as my 1/200 kit but my eyes and patience can barely handle tiny detail these days.
As far as the kit goes, it’s a Hobby Boss hull. Everything above that is either scratch built or 3D printed parts. I completely rebuilt the case mate bulkheads and all the teak decking. I think I simply used small diameter styrene rod for the rolled up canvas above the case mate gun openings.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:16 am 
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Franz, it is 5"/51cal guns not 5"/50cal guns.
Armament 12 x 14"/45 14 x 5"/51, 4 x 3"/50 2 x 21" tt.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/39a.htm


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:26 pm 
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Dave, thanks for the correction. My illness plays havoc with my memory.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:17 pm 
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Jeff,

My apologies. When I responded to Dave's post about getting the caliber wrong I didn't even see your reply! It really looks good. I know your put a lot of detail on the 1/200 scale model you built. That was an awesome build! I don't think I'd be surprised at all if this one came out as good!

I had the 1/350 scale Trumpeter model. I had bought it back in the 90's (soon after it first came out) when there were no 3-D printed parts or wood decks available. I knew then that the casement guns were not turrets like what came with the model. I was going to use the 3" guns off the Lindburg Gato sub model to replace the turrets that came with the Arizona kit. They looked close to their 5" cousins and were about the right size for a 1/350 model to represent 5" guns.

Bottom line I never really started on the model because of work and by the time I got back to it my eye sight had gotten worse and I always had short stubby fingers and now they are fatter and more arthritic. So I sold it and got the 1/200 scale model with the wood deck and extra PE sets.

It is still going to be a slow build but at this scale I can see more of what I'm doing!

PS I actually still have the Gold Medal Model PE set for the 1/350 scale Arizona. I didn't end up selling it with the kit. I do have it listed locally on Craigs List. It takes longer to sell but there are no hassles with shipping and extra costs like on Ebay.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:04 pm 
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Came across some film footage of the wreck that I had not seen before. The film is backwards so we are looking at her starboard side with the aft mooring quay in the lower left of this still. On the port side there is USS Navajo again looking very light compared to Arizona.
To the right of the mooring quay, quite a bit of the starboard gun tub is still above the water.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:50 pm 
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Jeff, really looks interesting. Can you pass the link to the movie?

Thanks

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 am 
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I'm closing in on finishing my Arizona build and was wondering what flags would be hung/flown while in port? I've also seen contradicting positions for the American flag. Any advise would be greatly appreciated! Thank You in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:33 pm 
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As for the U.S. flag in-port when I was in the Navy during the late 70's was flown at the stern and I believe the union jack (blue with white stars was flown at the bow. At sea the U.S. flag was flown from the mast. I'm not sure about the union jack. As for what other flags might have been flown I'm not sure.

I don't think the in-port positions of the flags would have changed between the 30's and 40's to the 70's when I was in because the Navy is nothing if not tradition bound.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:10 pm 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
prowannab,

Franz is correct - In port, USN commissioned vessels fly the U.S. flag from the stern flag staff and the union jack from the bow jack staff. When underway or leaving port, the Jack is lowered and the U.S. flag shifted to the flag halyard on the main mast of the ship. This hasn't changed at all!!

Hope this helps,

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BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:20 pm 
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It just hit me she would also have been flying a Rear Admirals pennant for Rear Admiral Kidd and a Church pennant (white with a blue cross flown above the U.S. Flag see below for reason why).

A correction on my previous post it's the "Jack of the United States" vs "Union Jack" which is the Royal Navy.

I'm not sure if the Rear Admirals Pennant would have been flown from the main mast in port. It's dumb that I can't remember as I served on Com 7th Fleet (USS Oklahoma City) for 2 years out of Yokouska Japan.

As for any other flags I don't think signal flags would have been flown in-port and normally running flags on rigging going from the bow to the main mast and to the stern (Dressing Ships) would have been for ceremonial purposes.

I found the following as a response to a question of why a church pennant is raised above the American flag during worship services on a web site:

"Im writing to you as a former member of the Royal Navy of just over four years, this is actually correct procedure when flying this flag (THE USN and the Royal Navy follow the same flag procedures), this is because its not actually a Christian flag as such but is that of the Chaplaincy and as such is considered a non combatant and is protected during war, so in theory a ship flying this flag on a Sunday cannot be fired upon during war as part of the Geneva convention.

The reason its flown above the US flag is due to the flags neutrality and therefore superseding that of the Country’s flag indicating that it is neutral at this point, ie it overrides the Stars and Stripes."

You can do a search on "US Navy church Pennant" and look at "Images for US Navy church Pennant"

Obviously the Japanese did not follow the Geneva convention on December 7th.

One other note:

I did see signal flags on a ship form the period that were rigged around the outer edge of the stern awning as decoration for Sunday Services. A close look at the Arial photo of the Arizona under the attack looks like something was running around the edge of the stern awning (see my first post from page 99 of 112 on Tuesday of July 10th at 5:05pm in which I think it looked like canvas).

That rounds it out.



Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:05 pm 
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Franz wrote:
Jeff, really looks interesting. Can you pass the link to the movie?

Thanks

Franz


Hi Franz, Sorry, I totally missed this request.
Here is a link to a colorized version of the footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8ADLzifm9M

Here's a view of Arizona's church pennant flying from her mainmast.
Image

Here is one on a stern of some unidentifiable ship.
Image

I think Kidd's flag was up on the main mast when the attack started (really hard to be sure with this photo) but I don't think either the church pennant or the American flag were raised up yet. At some point while the attack was in the early stages the American flag did indeed get raised up on her stern.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Jeff,
First off thanks for the link! Secondly I thought I read a first hand account of an individual on the ship who was going to raise the church pennant when the attack started. I don't recall if they completed the task or not.

As for how to complete the model I would still add both the US flag and the Church pennant because that's how she would have looked Sunday morning even though you may be correct that they didn't have time to raise them. I guess it boils down to complete accuracy at the moment of the attack vs how you want to display the model. So in other words the above is just my personal preference.

Thanks for the photos of the church pennant and I think your right about were Kidd's flag flew it's just that with my lousy memory I didn't want to mislead anyone.

And still looking at the photo you provided of the Arizona under attack it still looks like canvas was along the rails under the stern awning even though I can't find any post pictures showing it. It could have been blown off by the blast.

One other note on the stern awning if you look closely at some of the post attack pictures you can clearly see that the stern aircraft crane was used to hold the center of the awning up. I saw this being done on another battleship photo though I cant remember which.

Sorry for another wordy response.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:21 pm 
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I thank you both for your most informative posts! I can always count on this forum for the most accurate info,even sometimes it may be best thoughts,But still very informative. Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:05 pm 
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After a couple weeks of periodic reading, I went back through every page of this thread!

I wanted to share my current project with you all here. I'm developing a 1/1200 USS Arizona for 3D printing. I welcome any comments on my progress so far. Some items I'm limited on due to printer resolution such as the size of the cranes and the thickness of the splinter shields around the deck mounted 5" guns.

I plan to build 3 different models of this ship once I'm done; 1 in early 1941 either docked or sailing, 1 mid 1941 sailing, and 1 moored with awnings in Dec 1941.


Attachments:
USS Arizona Hull Day 11 reduced.png
USS Arizona Hull Day 11 reduced.png [ 146.75 KiB | Viewed 779 times ]

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Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Battle of Hampton Roads diorama in progress
1/1200 1945 USS Pennsylvania CAD model in progress
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:26 pm 
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the angle of the stern in the way it sticks out is too steep as is the bow protruding in as the bow is a rambow so does not curve that way. look at this link & you'll see what I'm talking about. http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 85-2_a.jpg


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