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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:11 am 
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Thanks Sean. I asked the question because one of the set of plans I am using for my build, showed a railing. I have learned to question these and plans I have.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
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Location: Downey, California
That's always the tricky thing about plans, no matter how authoritative they are: There's what was meant to be done, (or how it was meant to be done), which doesn't always match up with what was actually done, for a whole host of reasons. Time limitations, parts not yet available, or even something that looks fine on a sheet of paper not being quite so feasible in 3-dimensional reality! Not to mention the workers preferring to do it a different way (or just flat-out taking shortcuts when no one is looking...)

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:06 pm 
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For those interested, here is my build log for the CAD to physical model 1/1200 Arizona I'm working on: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=183734&p=771566#p771566

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Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Graf Spee model in progress
1/1200 USS Arizona CAD model in progress


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:23 pm 
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In looking closely at the bulkheads along the casement guns I came across what look like electrical fixtures. The horizontal one towards the top of the the bulkhead looks like it might be a light fixture. TheVertical fixture repeats across the bulkhead and I have no idea what these are for.

The fixtures in question are circled in black.

Any one have any ideas.

Thanks

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:47 pm 
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Hi Franz,
They are indeed light fixtures. Arizona had quite a few of them on her bulkheads throughout the 1930's. Not sure if they were still there in 1941. I see no evidence of them post attack. Here is how they looked.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:29 pm 
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Thanks Jeff, that sure looks like it.

I looked over my Post Pearl Harbor photos and I agree I don't see them, but the photos I have don't show much of the casement bulkheads and part of it is under water too. Also the resolution is not that good. With her still transitioning from peace time to war conditions could you make the case that these fixtures could still have been in place in late '41?

I thought of a way to add this small detail and thought it would add a lot of visual interest to the ship. If the lighting was removed like most of the electrical conduit running on the outsides of the tripod mast legs by 1941 then I would leave them off the model.

Your thoughts?

Thanks again for the clearer photo.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:34 pm 
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Well, I can tell you that they were still there after her last major refit in Jan. '41.
Image

You can zoom in with this link.
http://cdn.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/ ... 4207pu.tif

But I don't see any evidence of them post attack.

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:29 pm 
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Posts: 2227
depending on the material they were made from, they might have burnt/melted in the fire.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:02 am 
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First off - Jeff great photos! I have the same ones, but not with that resolution!

David you make a good point, but the conduit comes out of the bulkhead to the fixture so even if it was melted or blown off we should still see a little holes along the bulkhead where the conduit came out from the bulkhead for each fixture.

I think I can cover both bases by assuming they were removed at some point when the Arizona went into dry-dock to make repairs from the collision. So if I do my model from when she went into dry-doc I can add them in. Obviously I have no proof of this, but at this point I'm just making a rationalization for including them on the model.

Thanks for all the help from both of you

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:12 am 
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One other item missing after the January '41 photo was taken are the range clocks. They are present in that photo, but not in any of the post Pearl Harbor photos.

Ships are always undergoing some type of changes even between major refits.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:59 am 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
I disagree with the statement that the conduits/elec. wiring runs would have been removed due to impending war conditions. Unless equipment was removed or relocated, there would have been no reason to re-route elec. wiring - it would simply be painted over with the prevailing paint scheme.

Your photo is not clear enough to see the wiring that runs up/down the tripod legs of the masts - I see this clearly in the 1942 hi-res PENNSYLVANIA photos and that was well after Pearl Harbor. Wiring is shown just about everywhere painted with the same colors as the equipment it's laying against.

I also wouldn't put too much stock in the post-attack photos of the wreck - we're making assumptions based on what? - almost 80 years after the event? My speculations are that what wasn't blown or burned off, was subsequently mass removed when the salvagers came aboard to strip vital equipment out of the hulk. We don't really know when they or the photographers were on board or who came first unless you went back and somehow found the logs to the ship's access post-7 Dec 41 - if there are such records.

Just an opinion based on 6 years fleet service aboard 2 DDs, 1 DE, & a BB.

I DO think however, that your ideas about adding the wiring where you see it would work perfectly. I wouldn't worry at this point about whether you can prove 100% it was there on Dec. 7, 1941. These kind of details add quite a bit to the overall effect of the model.

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Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:03 pm 
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BB62vet wrote:
I DO think however, that your ideas about adding the wiring where you see it would work perfectly. I wouldn't worry at this point about whether you can prove 100% it was there on Dec. 7, 1941. These kind of details add quite a bit to the overall effect of the model.


I agree. If you are ambitious enough to add them, I say go for it. I started to add them to my 1/200 kit but even in that scale they are so damn small so I abandoned it to keep my sanity. It might not be worth it if you are painting her in MS-1 camo. The dark gray (please don’t do Sea Blue :-)) makes the fixtures even tougher to see with the naked eye.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
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Location: Downey, California
Franz wrote:
One other item missing after the January '41 photo was taken are the range clocks. They are present in that photo, but not in any of the post Pearl Harbor photos.

Ships are always undergoing some type of changes even between major refits.

Franz


Photos from August 1941 show the range clocks still on the Pearl Harbor battleships - thus, they were present for at least part of the ships' Ms. 1 period. They seem to have been removed sometime between September & November and there's no sign of them on any ship on Dec. 7. (Their brackets, on the other hand, usually remained in-place)

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:00 pm 
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Does anybody know if/where a set of plans or drawings for Arizona as she was launched might be found? I've found a number of pictures, but it's hard to capture some of the details around and in between the cage masts. I'm really wanting to build a version of the Arizona around the first 10 years of her existence. I read this thread over a period of time, so if it's already been mentioned I have forgotten where.

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Michael

Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Graf Spee model in progress
1/1200 USS Arizona CAD model in progress


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:54 pm 
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1924 Booklet of General Plans
This set of plans is dated 1924 but lists changes dated 1927 and has changes implemented in 1929 drawn into the plans. It is a good source of information of changes given the ghosted older details.
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... B39_07.jpg
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... B39_08.jpg
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/BB39/BOGP/


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:28 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm
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DavidP wrote:
1924 Booklet of General Plans
This set of plans is dated 1924 but lists changes dated 1927 and has changes implemented in 1929 drawn into the plans. It is a good source of information of changes given the ghosted older details.
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... B39_07.jpg
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... B39_08.jpg
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/BB39/BOGP/


Thank you! I've been hoping to find something better than those. They're definitely better than nothing, but the original drawings are so faint. I've been messing with contrast and other settings to try and pull the drawings out more prominently but haven't been successful so far.

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Michael

Love building and CAD modeling WWII Capital Ships

1/1200 Graf Spee model in progress
1/1200 USS Arizona CAD model in progress


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:58 am 
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Thanks to everyone on the input to the wiring. I am adding it to plans for detailing the ship. No I will not be doing the ship in the sea blue but the MS-1.

Thanks again.

Franz


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:12 am 
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Did the Arizona still have the spotting guns mounted on top of the main turrets on 7/12/41? I am of the belief that they were not , based on this photo, http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/0139008.jpg, but I would like to hear other's opinions.
Thank.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:06 pm 
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Hi Larry, yes she still had them. You can see it in the photo you posted, only by that time someone moved it for some reason.
In these picks you can see them in place.
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:27 am 
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Yep, you're absolutely right Jeff. This is why I asked the question, just to be sure.
Thanks.

Larry


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