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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:26 am 
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Camouflage

Common Wisdom has been that the battleships at Pearl Harbor were in mostly Measure 2, with a couple in measure 5; which called for vertical surfaces to be painted in 5-D Dark Gray. In mid 1941 the Navy decided that 5-S would be a better color to use. Use of 5-S was relatively short-lived as it faded quickly and became quite brilliant with weathering.

BUT

Ron Smith of AA Military Research has uncovered primary, textual documents that strongly suggests she was in a modified Measure 1 using 5-S. You will hear more about this from Ron.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:21 am 
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Tracy White wrote:
Camouflage

Common Wisdom has been that the battleships at Pearl Harbor were in mostly Measure 2,


Actually that would be Measure 1 not Measure 2 but no biggie as it turns out a few wore Measure 2 modified.

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Ron Smith of AA Military Research has uncovered primary, textual documents that strongly suggests she was in a modified Measure 1 using 5-S. You will hear more about this from Ron.


As soon as Tim resets my FTP I'll be sending him a piece on 1941 camouflage with some photos. Be prepared to actually read from beginning to end and for a few shocks. I will caution people not to argue on screen colors, especially those of the S&S paint chips, they look right on *my* system but by the time they get to your system can look wildly different depending on your system settings and hardware. In fact the JPEG's look slightly different from the TIFF and RAW formats on my system.

I will not post it on Steelnavy because of the attitudes and complete lack of moderation over there, I will also strongly object if anyone links it to Steelnavy. The full scope of the material will be published sometime this year with full cites, consider this a preview and remember it is legally copyrighted.

Also remember there is a lot of overlapping research by a number of people. We have mutually agreed not to steal each other's thunder and that nothing would be released until today, December 7th, 2006. I know the answers to a lot of things but since somebody else found them I will refer to them so be patient. Don Preul is currently in Hawaii for the ceremonies so he may take a little while to add what he's found.

Don Montgomery initially found the color films over 20 years ago. Steve Wiper did some research a few years ago and assisted from Tucson by providing some record numbers for further work this year and a good bit of advice. Don Preul of course built the new model for the Memorial, found some oral and written documents and was there to help me sort through some of my finds. Norman Freidman was at the table next to us the first day when Don and I discovered that I had found the motherlode of 1941 camouflage records with items in color and paint chips that have never been found before and the fate of Arizona's 1941 records; camouflage isn't Norman's "thing" but he was quite impressed with what I found. Mike Wenger and Danny Martinez were also active this fall in the hunt for information at NARA. The staffs of the Still Photos, Motion Pictures and Textual research rooms at NARA were of great assistance and many times bent over backwards to helps us ferret out the records.

What I will be sending Tim later today is literally just the tip of the iceberg and represents a condensation of maybe 2% of the records to go through for WWII USN camouflage.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:14 am 
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Ron Smith wrote:
Tracy White wrote:
Camouflage

Common Wisdom has been that the battleships at Pearl Harbor were in mostly Measure 2,


Actually that would be Measure 1 not Measure 2 but no biggie as it turns out a few wore Measure 2 modified..


OH jeez, that was a dumb typo...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:41 pm 
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You missed this article written and published here (about 2 years ago) and in the IPMS Journal. It may not have been that great but it is another build of the ship...additionally I wrote a review for the Waveline kit somewhee on this site.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:30 pm 
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Ah, sorry for my late re-entry into the thread, lets not forget my 1/192 build!
Abram Joslin's 1/192 USS Arizona

I feel like building a new 1/350 USS Arizona but super detailing it. One of these days

Well I'm thinking about it... would anyone know of an institution that would fund me to build a 1/350 diorama of battleship row and the drydocks at Pearl Harbor, or even a 1/700 scale diorama? Wouldn't you think a museum or something somewhere would like to have that kind of display?!

Anywho, enough of my ranting and taking up space.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:50 pm 
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Bob Dedmon wrote:
You missed this article written and published here (about 2 years ago) and in the IPMS Journal. It may not have been that great but it is another build of the ship...additionally I wrote a review for the Waveline kit somewhee on this site.


No slight meant Bob... I simply forgot about it (and Charles Landrum's Roll MOdel's build up too for that matter now that I think about it.

I'll add those as I get time; as you might imagine the last couple days have been a wee bit busy.....

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:52 pm 
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I want to post this in a safe place; Don Preul was the one that found this but Burl Burlingame from the Honolulu Star-Bulletin has been posting it on multiple sites so I presume that he got a copy that Don said was OK to distribute:

Buzz1941 wrote:
Here is the text of Kimmel’s order -- it is his first US FLEET letter and is “No. 1 USL-41” dated March 24, 1941.

SUBJECT: Turret Markings for Identification by Own Aircraft

1. This letter replace U.S. Fleet Letter No. 13L-40, which letter is hereby cancelled, since colored tails for aircraft are being eliminated.

2. Battleships and cruisers shall paint the tops of any or all their forward turrets or enclosed mounts with the following colors for identification by their own aircraft. When stripes are involved, they shall be painted parallel to the axis of the guns.

BATTLESHIPS

Battleship Division ONE … Red (solid)
Battleship Division TWO … White (solid)
Battleship Division THREE … Blue (solid)
Battleship Division FOUR … Black (solid)
Battleship Division FIVE … Yellow (solid)

CRUISERS

Cruiser Division TWO … Yellow (double stripe)
Cruiser Division THREE … Red (double stripe)
Cruiser Division FOUR … Blue (single stripe)
Cruiser Division FIVE … Yellow (single stripe)
Cruiser Division SIX … Black (single stripe)
Cruiser Division SEVEN … Green (single stripe)
Cruiser Division EIGHT … Black (double stripe)
Cruiser Division NINE … Green (double stripe)
Detroit and Raleigh … Blue (double stripe)
Richmond … Red (double stripe)
Augusta and Omaha … Red (single stripe)

3. In addition, battleships and cruisers shall paint the top of their after turret or enclosed mount to correspond with the section their aircraft are in. The colors are red, white, blue, black, green and yellow for first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth sections respectively.

H.E. KIMMEL

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Last edited by Tracy White on Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:57 pm 
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My gut reaction to red turret tops was "No Way!" (actually, it was considerably more profane than that :heh: ), but anyone who thinks with their gut isn't thinking at all...I'm still trying to catch up on some of the threads going on around the interweb, but I'm becoming firmly convinced.

What a great time to be a modeler, I find myself saying that more and more often.


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 Post subject: Arizona
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:14 pm 
The picture in Stillwell's book on page 220 and 221 showing the Arizona in #5 Standard grey was she in this configuration long with the spitter shield added to the 5/25's and the 1.1 area's readied? Also was she in #5 Standard grey with the radar platform installed? I'm looking to buildthe Dragon 1/700 Arizona in #5 standard grey and checking if I've got to change anything to the kit to do so. (I don't like the 5D or the Blue's) Thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:22 pm 
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That's pretty much her final configuration. It was the last major overhaul, anyway. It would be safer to leave off the radar platform but the rest of the kit should be good.

I found the below picture, by the way, taken during this last yard period.

Image

The focus was on the three YPs in the foreground so it's not all that usefull, but it was a fun find... the archivist had looked at that photo before but never noticed Arizona in the background.

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 Post subject: Arizona
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:08 pm 
Thanks for the help and pic Tracy. Where you doing a Pennsylvania model? I've been looking hi and low for info on what the difference's where between the Arizona and Pennsylvania. I would like to do a Pennsylvania model (January 41 time frame) after I finish my Arizona, Lex and Sara kit's I'll use the DML Arizona kit as the basis for it. Got any hints where I should look for info?


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:18 pm 
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Brian K wrote:
Thanks for the help and pic Tracy. Where you doing a Pennsylvania model? I've been looking hi and low for info on what the difference's where between the Arizona and Pennsylvania. I would like to do a Pennsylvania model (January 41 time frame) after I finish my Arizona, Lex and Sara kit's I'll use the DML Arizona kit as the basis for it. Got any hints where I should look for info?



Look at navsource's Pennsylvania page, that should help some.

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 Post subject: Last refit and paint
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:00 pm 
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The radar platform was not part of the refit back in Jan. It was added at Pearl. I don't know exactly when but from the photos I have it would been added between Aug 8 (no platform) and Oct 13th (platform added).
Paint - In my interview with Glenn Lane he mentioned that the ship was painted in July. I don't know how she was painted when she left Puget. I would guess and this is only a guess is that since Ships 2 wasn't distributed until sometime in Feb. (with Ms 1) I would think that it would be possible that she stayed in Standard Navy Gray until July.
Don Preul


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 Post subject: Radar Platform
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:09 pm 
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Hey All,
Be sure to glue the radar platform so that it faces aft, not like that dumbass did in haste on the model at the Arizona Memorial.
Don Preul


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:12 pm 
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Having trouble getting something off are we? :big_grin:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:33 am 
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Arizona did leave PSNS in Prewar #5 grey.

Yes I do intend to build a Pennsy model (to answer your question I heard via Ron, Don :big_grin: ) But I'm waiting on some photos of her in the drydock Ron scanned in for me. There are some questions I have regarding platforms that these will help with. I intend to do a PDF of templates for the banner kit for everyone interested... but it'll be predicated on getting enough information.

Here's a list of changes that was originally going to be part of a conversion set offered by Task Force Hobbies... which unfortunately never materialized.. my build was on hold for a couple of years waiting on this.

1. different main bridge level
2. different emergency conning tower level
3. different navagation bridge level and Gun director platform
4. different machine gun platform that goes underneath the forward fighting top.
5. different vents (square ) that go behind Turret No.#3
6. different square machine gun tub that goes on top of the observation platform on both sides of the Funnel.
7. 4 extra boats that go on the quarter deck, and a set of winches (Bow & Stern)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:31 am 
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New Article on Don and his Arizona in a newpaper. A few errors (the Navy launched dauntlesses from battleships??) but otherwise a good read and it shows Don wearing an Aloha shirt I have as well... you get that at the Missouri Store Don? :big_grin:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:33 pm 
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Quick question about Arizona's boats: were they all the same 5-S as the rest of the ship?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:19 am 
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Need Help...

I can't seem to find any detailed pictures showing the profile of the Arizona's hull below the waterline. Dragon's 1/700 kit has rows of ridges that run under the waterline... Is this correct? Either the hull halves don't fit well or there is also a ridge right at the waterline. The closest detail I can find is of the USS Pennsylvania in drydock

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013802.jpg

Were both ships identical below the waterline?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:28 am 
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Jeffcsr wrote:
Need Help...

I can't seem to find any detailed pictures showing the profile of the Arizona's hull below the waterline. Dragon's 1/700 kit has rows of ridges that run under the waterline... Is this correct? Either the hull halves don't fit well or there is also a ridge right at the waterline. The closest detail I can find is of the USS Pennsylvania in drydock

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013802.jpg

Were both ships identical below the waterline?


Sand the ridges off and the fit is pretty bad.

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