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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:20 am 
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Looks like Trumpetors earlier SH has the swallows nest(bow sponsons)if the box art is to be believed, so between the two versions, many variations could be attempted. I’m with you on the 3.7cm guns for 1939, I don’t see anywhere that shows where they would have been. As you said, the trouble with detail photos as to both time period and whether it was SH or Schlesien makes it very difficult to know. Also, the only two 3.7 cm naval mountings at that time we’re the twin mounts that were used on all the more modern surface ships or the single mount as used on Uboats. Good luck on your research, I’m hoping someone makes a detail set, but these ships might not have that big of an audience?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:57 pm 
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Heck Dan, between Fine Scale's Ship forum and this site, there's 7 members posting plus you. That'll have to be a quorum for an audience.

The "1935" kit must be selling well as the price is pretty stable at the online stores. Various Forums seem excited about the 1908 release too. Not much Trumpeter can do wrong with that, other than supply the wrong flags... Oops, they did not supply flags.

I am more and more convinced Trumpeter got "Bad Dates" *. The model is not right for a 1935 Schleswig-Holstein but is closer to 1936 to 1939 and may be perfect for that time frame except it still needs 15cm barrels in place of 17cm. In my opinion the best 15cm barrel replacement for the 17cm guns in the kit is the 1/350 Master Models German Battleship SMS Schleswig-Holstein Gun Barrel set. Skip any eBay offering for no-name 1/350 German 150mm barrels as the ones I've seen do not have the correct # of segments/tapering for the secondary gun barrels.

You are very correct about the 3.7cm guns. Single and "Doppel" barrel things that were heavy and took up a lot of room. The 2.0cm guns with their distinctive barrels are easy to spot in the film footage on that September 1st 1939 4:48AM 'shoot'.



So far...
If you want a 1935 S-H, add the "Swallows nests"/Forward Sponsons, add the 4 Casemated Torpedo tubes, add 2 forward upper-deck casemate guns, swap out all the 17cm barrels for 15cm 3-segment barrels and write Trumpeter about your experience.

If you want a 1936 thru mid 1939 then "Alle ist Richtig"... except for swapping out the 17cm for 15cm barrels.

If you want a Start-of_War/September 1st, 1939 model, keep reading and helping out on these posts.

Image Note the folded down railings to allow the main guns full depression.

Higher quality pic here: https://i.imgur.com/Aa6PKVY.jpg


One good thing came out of all my posts... I learned how to spell Schleswig-Holstein and Schlesien. I can just about pronounce'em now too.

Jim (Nino)

* quote from "Raiders of the Lost Ark".


Last edited by Nino on Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:38 pm 
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Nino wrote:
Anyone want to try for a 1944/45 version with camouflage?
Image

Nino


Me! Me! I don't mind building another one in that scheme!

Though on that point... first, what was her (His? Did the Kriegsmarine extend the same masculine naming convention to the little pre-dreads?) gun fit - again, so much inconsistent and incomplete information out there! Even from the biggest question of whether the casemate guns are all still there or landed/partially landed (photo's a bit too blurry to tell for sure). And, though I can't find it at the moment, I thought I saw a picture of her with radar installed...

Second, what should the colors be? I usually see this scheme rendered in greens; but then the Graf Spee is also frequently rendered that way though we now know it was grays.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:48 pm 
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I think the previous photo is Schlesien don’t know about colors other than what’s been published. Look at the guns at the rear of the aft superstructure, looks like the old single 8.8’s with curved shields. That contradicts most sources in regards to 1945 fit. Gets curioser and curiouser?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:37 pm 
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Actually, I was kidding about making a model for 1944-45 with Camo based on that picture.
That photo dates to 1941-42 according to one source. EDIT: and to 1943 for another. Radar does not appear to be mounted so that may help dating the photo. (Although perhaps it is painted-out?)

EDIT: According to German Naval Radar to 1945 By Erwin F. Sieche, During extensive refits in the last weeks of the war, the two old pre-dreadnought battleships Schleswig and Schleswig-Holstein were equipped with radar ..., A FuMO 25 with a large 2m x 6m mattress on an outrigger and a smaller training Palau frame above." ( I have not confirmed the radar platforms in any photos.)

Great catch on the 88's on the rear superstructure to prove Not 1944.

(Here's a 1/1250 model showing the Starboard side... )
Image



These Armament issues remain. I think I will keep a look-out for some of the German Model ship forums as members there may have direct access to the archives and posted a documented time-line. Perhaps they will discover definitive information on Guns carried and when and where.


I have a large update coming. Just need to get photo's posted.

Here is a small "taste".

"...Time frame for various re-fits and armament:

1924 thru early 1926: Schleswig-Holstein was Modernized. All 17cm guns changed to 15cm. The 6 underwater torpedo tubes were removed. 4 torpedo tubes were added to the hull in casemates; two at the bow, two at the stern. The 4-8.8cm /45 guns may have been changed to 8.8cm /45 AA guns at this time but one source says 1931 . Schleswig-Holstein became fleet flagship in January 1926 following this refit.


December 1927- Jan 1928 Schleswig-Holstein went back into dry dock. The 3 funnels changed to 2 and made taller. (Some sources indicate 1924-1926 for the Funnel change and also indicate some boilers were changed to oil-fired at the same time.)

1931: The 2 rear upper-deck 15cm casemate guns were removed- (some sources indicate 1924-26).
(One source indicates the 4-8.8cm guns were changed to 8.8/45 AA guns in 1931, not 1924-26.)

1935: Became part of the new Kriegsmarine. Eagle emblems added to stern. Below is a photo of Schleswig-Holstein with Scheer on the left. This was captioned as "...Kiel in the summer of 1935".
Note that the forward sponsons/"Swallows nests" and casematted Torpedo tubes are still on!

Image

My initial conclusion: The Schleswig-Holstein still had the Forward Sponsons, Casemate Torpedo tubes, and the 2 forward Upper-deck 15cm Casemate guns throughout 1935.

1936: Refitted as a cadet-training ship in early 1936 . The 2 forward upper deck 15cm casemate guns removed (may have happened in 1937 *). The 4 casemated Torpedo tubes removed. All forward Sponsons/"Swallows nests" removed. (Some sources say some boilers were converted to oil-firing at this time. (Awaiting a few books for specifics)

1937: 4-2.0cm C/30 guns added*. 6-10.5cm guns added*, 4-3.7cm c/30 added* ( I do not have photographic proof of the 10.5cm and 3.7cm guns.)
* Source: navypedia.org: Kaiserliche Marine/Reichmarine/Kriegdmarine, also German Warships, Vol1 by E.Groner.

1939: 2-2.0cm C/30 guns added. Total may now be 6- 2.0cm C/30 guns for "Start-of-War. One source indicates all 10-15cm guns removed in late 1939. (EDIT: The WSW 1/700 resin kit supplies 6-2.0cm c/30 guns and 1-2.0cm flakVeriling gun. "... Very Interesting...")

Some notes...
Some sources have concluded that 10.5cm guns and 3.7cm guns were added in the late 30's. Various times were specified. I have not seen photos or documented evidence to prove these specifics other than a drawing posted on a Web site.

Various sources indicate a variety of additional AA added for the 1943-44 time frame.
One source has specifics: 4-3.7cm removed, 4-2.0 cm C/30 removed , 10-40mm Flak 28 added, 4-2.0cm/c38 4-barrel added , 3-2.0cm C/38 added. FuMo 25 radar added.


My opinion on Armament for Sept 1, 1939:

4-28.0cm L/40, 10-15cm L/45, 6-2.0cm C/30.
( 1-2.0cm/C30 Flakveriling-4 barrel... still searching for proof other than a few frames of movie footage. (EDIT: The WSW 1/700 model depicts one 2.0cm Flakveriling/4-barrel gun on the port side rear boat deck.)

Here are the 3 Stbd-side 2.0cm C/30 guns from a 1939 photo:
Image


More to follow...

Nino


Last edited by Nino on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:06 am 
Hello - I realize this thread is four years old, but I am working on the Trumpeter Schleswig-Holstein and am trying to depict her as on September 1 1939. Have any more pictures surfaced of her 20mm armament?

Thanks in advance,

Don


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:19 am 
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Don,

I'm just back from vacation so I'll be awhile getting ALL my updates in order & posted., so Standby... as they say in the movies.

Nino

Edit: Don, there is no option under your name for me to do a private message. Have you already dropped off the members list? I cannot PM you as there is no email address. Please post again or send me a PM and I will update you with better info on the Small caliber weapons onboard Sept 1st, 1939.


A short note: There are several errors in the Trumpeter kit for a 1939 version. The Trumpeter kit is closer to a May 1936 version.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Just got the 1908 Schleswig-Holstein in, a quick look review, hull halves are exactly the same as 1935 kit. The bow sponsons are provided as add on parts. Looks like between these two kits you could make any of the Deutschland class, at any period. The torpedo tube sponsons would have to be scratch built. The funnels for Schliesen as in WWII are not trimmed above deck, like the others. Other than that just waiting for metal barrels, wood stick on decks, and maybe a complete detail set.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:23 pm 
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Thanks for the observation on the 1908 version Dan. SMS Deutschland had a very different bridge but the others are doable from the 1908 SH for early 1900's.

I received 2 of my wish-list books today as presents. Looks like I can add some additional details on armaments and conversion dates on Schleswig-Holstein. Just need to do some serious translations as one book is all in German.

The 1935 Trumpeter kit has a few errors for 1935 as well as using it for 1939. I have already done photos showing some corrections needed but I still need to confirm my ideas on the kit and make updates to a previously prepared text after I read my new Christmas Presents.

Have a Great Holiday!

Nino


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Hello, Nino, have you had a chance to see if any of the new material you received could shed any more light on SH, September 39?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:41 am 
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Dan Banks wrote:
Hello, Nino, have you had a chance to see if any of the new material you received could shed any more light on SH, September 39?

I shall do so Dan. It took awhile to translate one of those new books I got. It was worth it though. The German publication, Schlesien & Schleswig-Holstein (Marine band 21) by Stephen Breyer, explains a lot and has convinced me that the Online sources on these two ships have many specs on Armament types and re-fit dates wrong.

And yea... Trumpeters "1935" kit is really a 1936 version with a few errors on the extended platforms near the boat cranes. I will post some pics soon. Currently I have a bunch of family activities going on so I will be awhile yet.
I believe I found enough proof, at least for me, to be convinced that there was a 4 barrel 20mm ( 2.0cm/30 Veriling) mount at the rear of the boat deck BUT ONLY ON THE PORT SIDE!

Schleswig-Holstein, a preview of my future post...

The so-called 1935 version can be made into a more believable 1935 or earlier version by adding the bow sponsons from the 1908 kit and building the Torpedo mounts at the bow. Also add the 15.0cm gun barrels to replace the kits secondary gun barrels.
A nice 1936 thru early 1939 can be made with just a simple correction to a platform on the port side and replacing the kits secondary gun barrels with 15.0cm barrels.
Best of all, a beautiful September 1939 can be made with the 15.0cm barrels in place of the kits secondary gun barrels, six 2.0cm c/30 guns added and one 2.0cm c/30 Veriling gun added to the port side-rear boat deck and a few minor corrections to some platforms.
Camo appears for both ships in early 1940's. Later in the war radar gets added to the forward mast and a host of light AA get installed. The AA types and quantity gets dicey after 1940. 3.7cm finally get added and more 2.0cm too. That AA gets changed again in several steps later in the war with the 2.0cm c/30 being replace with c/38. The same happens with 3.7cm c/30 guns that were added after 1939 as these get changed to newer model 3.7cm guns too. I never found any photo proof that 10.5cm guns were installed after the stacks were changed; although some plans show them.

More soon.

Nino


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:13 am 
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Lets start with some translations to get some background.
The following information was gleaned mostly from 2 sources, Marine Arsenal "Band"19, Ship of the line, Schleswig-Holstein and Schlesien by Sigfried Breyer and
German Warships 1815-1945 VOL 1 Major Surface vessels by Erich Gröner. Other reliable works (NOT WIKIPEDIA!) were used to confirm the dates and refits specifics.

In December 1927 the Schleswig-Holstein was renovated in the Wilhelmshaven shipyard. The two front chimneys are merged similar to the work done on Schelsien. This work lasted until January 1928. The Schleswig-Holstein ship was now armed with 2 x 2-280mm/37 SK L/40 C/01, 14 x 1-150mm/43 SK L/45 C/09, 2 x 1-88mm/45 FlaK L/45 C/13, and 4 x 1 - 500 Torpedo tubes.

In autumn of 1930 the Schelswig-Holstein, and the in autumn 1931 the Schlesien, had the two aft upper deck 15 cm guns removed to make room for other purposes.

This was followed by the conversion of both battleships to cadet school ships. It started with Schlesien, again at the Wilhelmshaven navy yard, whose work began on February 18, 1935 and was completed on April 8, 1935. This was followed on 11 January 1936 by Schleswig-Holstein, whose work lasted until March 16, 1936.
Details: The armament, the fire control systems, the radio equipment and the navigation gear were modernized. These measures were completed by the day of the occupation of the Rhineland .

During this renovation, the Schleswig-Holstein lost the two "swallows' nests" (which had been removed on Schlesien in 1926-27). During this dockyard period, the ships' forward 15.0 cm guns, positioned on the upper deck, were also removed, so that from then on there were only ten 15.0cm guns s left. Also, the torpedo tubes disappeared, their positions were closed up. Four 2-cm FlaMG C/ 30s (single) base mountings were added. They were installed on side platforms near the book cranes (on which the small distance measuring devices had previously stood) and on newly erected platforms directly behind the aft mast.
[i]My translation may be off as there are no photo's showing a new platform w/2.0cm guns behind the aft mast around this time


The 8.8 cm SK guns placed on the aft superstructure had already been replaced by 8.8 cm flak L/45. New telecommunications systems and fire control systems were also installed. The real purpose of this renovation, however, was to create living and teaching space for the cadets to be taken on board in the future.

This conversion was followed by another shipyard layover for SCHLESWIG_HOLSTEIN on May 2, 1936, during which the "machine system" (Engines?)was overhauled. This dockyard period ended on July 11, 1936. (Schleswig-Holstein had oil and coal-fired boilers.) From spring to autumn 1938 the Schlesien was overhauled too. This time only the drive (Engine room?) area. The last four coal-fired boilers were removed; The boiler room occupied by them served - after appropriate renovation - as a living and classroom for cadets. (Schlesien was oil only, no coal!)
DETAILS: The conversion of the boiler plant for oil firing (eight of the twelve boilers) and the installation of fuel tanks took place in May 1936 after the conversion to a Cadet Ship.

Since then, this ship (Schlesien) has sailed with oil-fired boilers alone (in contrast to Schleswig-Holstein, which now has four coal-fired boilers in addition to its eight oil boilers). The external appearance was changed again: The sloping jacket approach of the front chimney - in which the smoke pipes of the front four boilers were guided - was no longer present. This made it easier to distinguish the two ships even at longer distances.

The decommissioning of Schleswig-Holstein was planned for 1939 along with its conversion into a remote-controlled target ship. However, this did not happen because of the beginning of the war. Immediately before the attack on Poland - on August 23, 1939 - in the Naval Arsenal Swienemunde she received a 2-cm quadruple flake C / 38 instead of the 2-cm FlaMG C/30 posted near(under) the port boat crane. (This was probably the first, which was installed on a Navy ship).

In the course of the second half of 1940, the entire Secondary armament ( 15.0cm guns) was removed on both ships; their guns were used to equip the auxiliary cruisers Orion and Widder, by Schleswig-Holstein, and Atlantis, Thor, and Penguin by Schlesien.

A brief list of activity:

1925 — 26: Modification.

1st of February 1926: Recommissioning (fleet flagship).

14th Nov thru—17th June1926: Participation in the fleet's Atlantic and Spain trip.

30th March - 14th June 1927: Training trip to Spain and Portugal.

Winter 1927 —1928: Another renovation at Wilhelmshaven shipyard.

30th June — 18th July 1928: Training trip to Norway.

February 1929: Used as an icebreaker in the Baltic Sea as .

16th April — 11th May 1929: Training trip to the Atlantic.

29th October 1929: During maneuvers in the Baltic Sea had a collision with the torpedo boat LEOPARD.

2nd April — 18th June 1930: Training trip to the Mediterranean.

15th June — 3rd July 1931: Training trip to Norway.

4th July— 12th July 1932: Training trip to Norway.

24th July — 8th August 1933: Training trip to Norway and Sweden

18th — 22nd October 1934: Visit to Amsterdam.

19th August 1935: Hitler ships with a large entourage on the SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN.

22nd September 1935: HOLSTEIN gives up role as fleet flagship.

11th. January — 16.th May 1936: Conversion to a cadet training ship at the Wilhelmshaven shipyard.

12th October 1936 --20th April 1937: Training trip to South and Central America, Caribbean, Ireland.

11th October 1937 - 20th April 1938: Training trip around Africa and England.

29th October 1938 — 10 May 1939: Arrive in Gdansk for a "routine visit", but in reality for bombing
the Westerplatte.

1st September 1939: At 04:47, SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN was ordered to open fire on the Westerplatte - The first shots of World War II fired at 04:48.
Bombardment was done several times by the end of the month at the Hel peninsula (hit by a 152mm coastal gun), Gdynia, Kepa, and Oxhöft.

9th Apri1 1940: As part of the "Weser Exercise South" Schleswig-Holstein was the lead ship of group 7, which was involved with taking Nyborg and Korsör, Norway.

Used as a cadet training ship. From May 1940.

(The above are my translations of several well-respected works about German capital ships. There are grammatical "errors".)

Small caliber AA gun Summary for 1st September,1939:
Schleswig-Holatein had the following Armaments: In 1937 4-2.0cm/30 guns added and in 1939 2-2.0cm guns and 1-2.0cm/c38 Flakveriling added. Total now 6-2.0cm guns and one 4-barrel 2.0cm gun. for "Start-of-War.


I will supply photos depicting the Six 2.0cm and One 2.0cm flakveriling locations and a correction needed to the Trumpeter 1935 version aft superstructure near the boat crane, in my next update.

Nino


Last edited by Nino on Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:08 pm 
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Great info. I have this kit in the stash, so thank you.

_________________
Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:20 am 
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Great info, thanks Nino, looking forward to aa gun location update


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 5:32 pm 
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Wow, time flies when your stuck at home and find all the Honey-Do things get put first on the list.

Sorry for the delay.

Here's is one fix I believe is necessary to make the Trumpeter "1935" kit into a September 1939 version:

Image


Nino


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:03 am 
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That helps, do you have the locations of the other 4 20mm mounts, nearer the bridge. Can’t quite make out exact locations from the photos you marked. Also the quad flak veirling location. I’m about ready to dive in. Someone will probably put out an upgrade set about half way thru


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:31 am 
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Dan,
I have to upload a bunch of photos to my hosting site and then I will add a post here.

Some of my references might be better shown using photos from another modelers 1939 version. He got several locations wrong but did darn good on the 2 upper bridge locations. These photos I can't post but I will PM you for an email address and can send to you that way.

I am having a darn good stay-at-home time during this pandemic. I have half-dozen kits underway. I guess I got bored with ships since I just finished a Dio of the old IMAI Thunderbird's TB-1 and am deep into 'The General", an MPC kit of the old locomotive. (I watched Buster Keaton's The General movie last week which got me even more enthused.)
Also, Things must be getting better because I finally received my February 8th order from ModelsUA in the Ukraine. It had my 1/350 Micro-Mir USS Parche. Now I have another project to figure out what the lower hull really looked like since I am convinced the kit is wrong.

Sorry for my slow responses. I am finding I am busier then ever these last 12 weeks. Simple to understand...
I had no excuse to delay my "around-the-house Honeydo list.

Jim.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:34 pm 
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Sounds like your hoppin, my wife and I have the grandkids the last 10 weeks, we have next week off, whew, my email is cyberdan51@sbcglobal.net. Thanks for all the help and info


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:29 pm 
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Dan,
I have an email on the way.

Jim.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:04 pm 
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I am building the SMS Deutschland model on a scale of 1/100. I ask for help on the anchor crane of the ship. I have more than two dozen photos of the crane, from different angles, but unfortunately they do not give a complete picture. Are there any drawings of this mechanism? The same cranes were on SMS type Braunschweig. Still interested in the drawings of floodlights of these ships. I would be very grateful for your help.


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Bundesarchiv_DVM_10_Bild-23-61-38,_-SMS_Deutschland-,_vorderer_Geschützturm.jpg
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