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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:50 am 
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https://shop.modellmarine.de/product_in ... ucts_id=69


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:52 am 
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Great ... thank you very much! :-)

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:33 pm 
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Picked up the Artwoks deck, came with PE and anchor chain, good detail and nice color tone. Not to bad, now on to a fit test.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:46 pm 
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ingura wrote:
...12" L 45 instead of L 50 if memory serves me).

KRONMA wrote:
...12" L50 Guns...

Sorry, that pics SMS Moltke with 28cm SK-L/50 guns (11.1")


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Really nice build!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:26 am 
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Hello,

I will start soon SMS Markgraf and I know that the coming set from WEM (still on mail delivery) includes the shipsign of all 4 ships of this class too ... which shoud be placed on Bow, for example the crown of SMS Koenig. But unfortunetely I find nowhere any Information about the sign of Markgraf, particularly Color(s) of this sign in which should be painted.

Does anyone have any Information about?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:42 am 
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Hi Christian,

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But unfortunetely I find nowhere any Information about the sign of Markgraf, particularly Color(s) of this sign in which should be painted.

You got yourself a hard nut to crack! The problem is: the König class battleships were completed on the verge of WWI breaking out, and at that point in time all active ships in the navy were ordered to remove their bow-crest (Bugwappen in German), I believe to make recognition by the enemy more difficult. So during and after the war you'll find hardly any photographs of ship of the Imperial Navy (Kaiserliche Marine) with these bow crests.

Only Grosser Kurfürst and König were put into service before the war (30.7.1914 and 9.8.1914), and I found some pictures of these two ships wearing their crowns as bow-crest. But Markgraf and Kronprinz were only put into service well after the hostilities had started (1.10.1914 and 8.11.1914), I therefore belief there is hardly any chance you'll ever find a photo of these ships with any crown as bow-crest.

But then this postcard, clearly saying it's the Markgraf?
Attachment:
markgraf_60no is grosser kurfürst0_jpg.jpg
markgraf_60no is grosser kurfürst0_jpg.jpg [ 52.25 KiB | Viewed 2095 times ]

I'm afraid we're fooled again, this is the Kurfürst. The type of crown is anyway incorrect for a Markgraf (marquess), feast yourself on heraldic crowns:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangkrone

But WEM supplies them in their PE set? Yes, and so does Gold Medal Modes in theirs, but having these sets both at hand I can say these are vastly different! In particular for Markgraf: GMM shows a sort of fleuron-crown, and WEM in fact shows an imperial crown which is heraldically totally incorrect! But anyway, both can only sprout from a vivid imagination. So hardly any use of phantacising about the colours. I would say gold with coloured gems...

But then there is this photograph of 'MARKGRAF auf Probefahrt' (on trial) in the Marine-Arsenal booklet about the König-class, page 22)? Clearly with a bow-crest consisting of two coats-of-arms? Sorry, gotcha! the maker of the booklet made an error, this is a Kaiser class battleship, not a König, in fact it shows SMS Kaiserin! And yes, that ship was in service well before the war...

So, if you really want to add this crown to you model of Markgraf, it will be an artistical liberty you have, but there is no historical evidence to support that. Personally I think the crown from GMM woud at least be closer from a heraldic point of view. WEM's is certainly not.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:05 am 
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Hi Maarten,

thank you very much :-)
By Chance I found it out now. In the net I found an oil paint of Markgraf and here was something yellow or Gold with red only visible on the bow. Well, there was something I found elsewhere by Google before, but not again. But then I took German search keys (Wappen Schlachtschiff SMS Markgraf) and got finally on a sell/offer site this:

Image


Sure, in war it is most unlikely that it was still in colour on bow or even at all = being removed. But you know, some colourful things are always welcome on the grey beasts ;-)

P.S.
The Crown is the sign on bow of SMS Koenig

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:22 am 
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Hi Christian,

Fully in agreement with you, and I think you spotted correctly that it's König in the picture, not Grosser Kurfürst. The crowns on these two are very similar indeed.

And of course, the 'Bugwappen' adds a nice piece of colour to the model. In that case I would like you to consider also adding the Imperial crown to both sides of the stern, with the calligraphed W underneath, plus the ship's name on a blue shield with golden letters close to it. These were all removed at the same time as the bow crest.

I can't find pictures of it now, but there are several models around showing these embellishments, particularly in the German RC sailing model community.

PS: if you want to have the GMM Markgraf 'fleuron' crown from me, instead of ordering the whole set, I will gladly send it to you. At least it's closer to the right type of crown than anything from the WEM set, and there are also the name shields in brass added to it. Not the imperial monogram unfortunately. Please send me a mail message through the site, then we may exchange addresses.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:40 pm 
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Ah, but wait - something interesting about that picture:

It's the Konig, but note the late-fit foremast and lack of torpedo net booms - that picture dates from after Jutland!

Some years back I built the Konig when ICM had just released it, and I saw the same photo - proof that for a time, at least that particular ship did have a full-color crest in her late fit. However, I had exactly the same question: what colors should be used? Never got an answer... ended up guessing "Prussian Blue" - dabbed the paint into the recessed portions and fine-sanding the brass so the raised portions shined clean and proud.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:23 am 
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Well, referring to the 'Rangkrone' link I included earlier it should look something like this:
Attachment:
Prussian kin crown.png
Prussian kin crown.png [ 105.52 KiB | Viewed 2019 times ]


So predominant gold and red, with silvery gems. Not prussian blue!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:54 am 
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Hello Maarten,

I received yesterday my WEM Set and there are indeed 4 different type of crowns for These 4 ships as PE part. Indeed, the one marked to be for Markgraf looks like this one here you show.
I will try my best to paint it this way :-)

Cheers,
Christian

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Hold on! That's the drown of the Prussian king, so that's König's emblem!

The Markgraf (Marquess) crown should look like this:
Attachment:
200px-Rangkronen-Fig__15_svg.png
200px-Rangkronen-Fig__15_svg.png [ 35.06 KiB | Viewed 1904 times ]


And that's not included on the WEM set, but it is on the GMM set!

So that's why I offered that to you. Send me a mail so that we can arrange that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:50 am 
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Hello Maarten,

in meantime I have more as doubts about it in general! These 4 ships - "König" (= King), "Grosser Kurfuerst" (= Electoral Prince), "Markgraf" (= Margrave or Marquess) and "Kronprinz" (= Crown Prince) have names showing Royal ranks in German. I thought that these 4 are the minor ranks of the German Emperor dynasty of Hohenzollern ... but now I have really doubts that in matter of Markgraf it is the Markgraf of Brandenburg (this is the region around Berlin) in meaning!
The ship is always shown with this yellow coat of arms having a red diagonal bar inside as ship symbol, as here shown on this image below:

Image

This coat is without any doubts the coat of the "Markgraf von Baden", as shown here (source = Wikipedia) ... (Brandenburg has another coat with eagle etc.):

Image

The depending crown of Marquess of Baden him is this one (source is an old book (loose pages of medieval heraldic from my grandfather) ... and this depends at least again with the crown given by WEM PE-Set:

Image

In conclusion:
As far as I believe now, it is NOT the Markgraf of Brandenburg in meaning here, but the Markgraf of Baden. It is now questionable if Markgraf had a crown or the coat of arms as shown above. If the crown was really worn, then the crown given by WEM is correct so far.

Cheers,
Christian

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:45 pm 
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This is getting an interesting theoretic discussion! I had alwayes assumed that the Prussian (Hohenzollern) dynasty was providing the reference for the Imperial fleet. Then yes, the Markgraf of Brandenburg would be the royalty being implied with this ship's name.

But then if you are right, the coat of arms you show I recognize indeed being that of Baden (I'm also building the later flagship SMS Baden as a conversion, and secretly I was planning to add her Bugwappe as well, being the coat you have shown).

But take a second look: the coat of arms is already showing the crown!
Attachment:
Baden.jpg
Baden.jpg [ 18 KiB | Viewed 1826 times ]

And THAT crown is indeed the expected noble's crown of a Markgraf (Margrave), with only the 'fleurons' or leafs, and lacking the typical arches of a king's crown.

So the other crown you are showing is making everything more complicated again: Baden was a Markgrafschaft from 1112 to 1803, so then the heraldic Margrave crown applied. But it became a Kurfürstentum in 1803 until 1806, and an Erzherzogtum from 1806 until 1918, which justifies the Royal crown, with the arches. So both crowns have a relationship with Baden, but in different times.

But as we are discussing the applicable crown for SMS Markgraf, I am inclined to believe that the Margrave crown (with the fleurons, and without the arches) applies in this case.

What do you think? I think the other crown from the WEM set applies more to the Grosser Kurfürst maybe?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:48 am 
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Hello Maarten,

well ... it is somehow complicated.
Brandenburg became around year 1410 or so "Kurfuerstentum" too and so title went up from "Markgraf of Brandenburg" to be a "Kurfuerst of Brandenburg". But later it was very often still "Markgraf of Brandenburg" written ...

As you, I thought for the first that all the titles of the Hohenzollern in Prussia. You know, they have as other Royals a long list of titles too.
What made and still makes me confusing is the coat of weapon here, which is un-doubtful the one of Baden and so at least nothing around any Hohenzollern title. As told and shown by example, there are several images showing SMS Markgraf with this yellow / red coat only (another example can be found here too: http://www.maritimequest.com) as symbol and no where any type of crown. Further I found somewhere in internet an oil paint of the ship too where is on the bow something in yellow / red shown.

So ... on one hand it is obvious that SMS Markgraf has the type of Markgraf-Crown but on the other hand both, Baden and Brandenburg were since a long time still no "Mark" when ship was build. Was still crown type of a Markgraf valid then or the higher one of "Kurfuerst" as WEM Set gives?
But then I have now really doubts that there was any type of crown given at all, but for this the coat of weapon from "Baden" ... because everywhere I found symbol of SMS Markgraf = this coat of Baden, but no crown! But "why the hack" the coat of "Baden" here when all 3 sister ships have Prussian titles? :scratch:

I have still started building of Markgraf, but for the moment I let the question of which symbol to place on bow open.

It will be interesting which source brought WEM to give this type of crown at least ... :-)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:25 am 
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Hi Christian,

I agree, it's a rather hypothetical discussion, as we have no hard or clear evidence for it.

Wikipedia (English version) states: "Markgraf was named in honor of the royal family of Baden. The name Markgraf is a rank of German nobility and is equivalent to the English Margrave, or Marquess."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Markgraf

So no Prussian royalty indeed. But in 1914 SMS Baden (the new flagship, to be successor of SMS Friedrich der Große) was already well advanced and use of the coat of arms of Baden was clearly envisioned for that ship. Using it for the Markgraf would be very confusing, wouldn't it?

In 1914 there were no ruling Markgrafs whatsoever: the title had been abolished in 1806, together with the end of the Holy Roman Empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margrave. So no living markgrafs at that time. But neither was the 'Großer Kurfürst', a title referring to Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia, the Prince-Elector of Brandenburg, who died in 1740. Only König and Kronprinz were referring to then living persons.

So I don't see a problem with the use of a historical crown on a ship in 1914, but we cannot be sure anyway.

Why don't we ask WEM (John Snyder, Peter Hall) what their reasoning and references have been? Surely these have been different from GMM's, as the design of the crowns in detail is completely different, and GMM have included something resembling a margrave's crown, while WEM didn't. I'll open a different thread in the manufacturer's section for that.

Maarten

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:30 am 
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Hi Maarten,

I wrote yesterday a PM to John of WEM and he answered that he doesn't know, but forwarded my question to Peter Hall. ;-)

At least it is very confusing as I wrote and I can agree so far with you here ... but still unclear and in a grey area ... lets wait what Peter Hall tells.

But ... that SMS Baden has the coat of arms of Baden makes of course more sense as that SMS Markgraf has them too / Markgraf has a crown ... here I can agree with you so far too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:25 am 
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The WEM graphics, with exception of Grosser Kurfürst, appear to be clip art.
Dave


Attachments:
KoKlWappenSM.jpg
KoKlWappenSM.jpg [ 13.85 KiB | Viewed 1710 times ]


Last edited by Dakra on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:53 am 
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Wow Dakra,

This is another interesting reference, where did you get it from? Time to compare it with both WEM and GMM, I think.
Attachment:
WEM König class crowns.jpg
WEM König class crowns.jpg [ 15.56 KiB | Viewed 1707 times ]
Attachment:
WEM König class crowns, key.jpg
WEM König class crowns, key.jpg [ 15.81 KiB | Viewed 1707 times ]
The numbers mean: 16 Kronprinz , 17 Markgraf, 18 Grosser Kurfürst, 19 König
And now the GMM set:
Attachment:
GMM König class crowns.jpg
GMM König class crowns.jpg [ 21.13 KiB | Viewed 1707 times ]

They really dont agree on anything. But for me GMM is getting a little bit closer to the reference you sent.
What do you think?

IMHO: I would only choose the Kronprinz crown from the WEM set, but for the other three crowns I prefer the GMM rendering, although none of them is perfect. But then, we lack any GOOD pictures of these badges from the real ships, so that should be close enough, I guess.

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