The Ship Model Forum

Thank you!!!

I could not wait for the answer (as I worked on boats yesterday) so I placed a query on 2 forums: here and on Russian airbase. We came to very similar conclusions:
- open boats never had either a protective layer (black, green, red, whatever) of their underwater part or waterline so they were uniform grey hull color.
- based on real photos motorboats in Hochseeflotte had same grey color on the hull before the 1914. On photos in Scapa Flow the underwater part is darker color (black/white photos) but barkasses and cutters are painted all grey.

Examples (pre-Yutland/pre-war photos):
http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachme ... tem=159075
http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachme ... tem=159079
(unfortunately I have no photos from Scapa Flow at the moment - just relying on saying from one Russian expert supported by the whole group of other modellers).

So during the war there was a moment when the underwater hull of motorboats was painted different color than the hull grey. Red is an assumption for motorboats of Grosser Kurfurst.

As I am duing pre-Yutland (not pre-war) version I would paint motorboats underwater hull red (I like it too) leaving barkasses and cutters all grey.

Yevgeniy

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Peter,

This is the best feedback I could get.

You made a present for me today - I could not find a motorboat funnel painted buff except on the model of Jim Baumann and already started regretting I could not do it authentically - but you saved my buff funnels. I like that color for funnels so much!!!

Thank you again - now I know for sure how to proceed.

Yevgeniy

Hi all!

I would like to ask for your knowledge on life rings colors and their painting scheme in Kaiserliche Marine.

I browsed wonderful Markgraf model photos by Jürgen Waldmann on igkm here http://www.igkm.de/igkm-eng/Photos3/Sei ... kgraf.html and those life rings look like totaly red or orange.

Also it is Markgraf without torpedo nets which means after Yutland version. I am building pre-Yutland Grosser Kurfurst and wonder how to paint those life rings which will be very visible due to their bright coloring and I do not want to make them wrong.

Thank you.

Yevgeniy

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Peter,

I am really thankful that you find time to answer my posts on Kaiserliche marine - do not appologize for being late as I can not expect you will be on-line all the time.

Thank you very much for that information. I will know how to proceed. I am happy those life-rings are all red - looks good.

If you do not object at the end of my build I will ask moderators (if they find time for that) to remove my threads with your answers into Calling All Konig Fans section so that those who would build 'Konig family' will know everything from 'first hands'.

Thank you again.

Yevgeniy

Then you must build quick, Yevgeniy, for posts in the Main Forum get pruned once they reach the end of page 10.

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?

Ok, Timmy, I will try my best - anyway I plan to finish end of August beginning of September - I hope page 10 will not be reached.

Yevgeniy

Hi all!

A bit of info for those building Konig and sisterships - attached is the color scheme for them. Unfortunately it is too late for me to use it and my Grosser Kurfurst will be wrong - I wish I had this scheme when I started building 3 years ago. Sorry I do not remember where I have found that - but it was from free source and I am thankful for people who posted that.

Yevgeniy
P.S. THE SCHEME BELOW IS FOUND TO BE WRONG. IT IS NOT DELETED FOR THE PURPOSES OF READER'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE LATER DISCUSSION. PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS SCHEME AND READ MATERIALS BELOW ON THIS PAGE AS TO PROPER COLORS OF WWI SMS.

Hello all,

I am new to ship models and I need some information. I was given the ICM 1/350 Grosse Kurfurst (GK) to build for my birthday. I want to build the G.K as she appeared at Jutland. I am not sure which parts I need to use. I have ordered the WEM PE sheet to use with the kit.

From reading the posts (some real experts on here by the way) I gather that I need to use the bridge deck part with the 'wings' (J21), does this mean that I will also need to use the upper deck with the wings as well (J41), is this correct?

Whilst cleaning up the mould seam on the bottom of the hull, I think I have sanded off the location for the twin rudders. The instructions are very vague on the exact location, can anyone provide a picture of where the rudders are actually supposed to go?

My second question refers to the platforms with the searchlights(?) attached to the two funnels. These platforms have solid walls moulded around them Is this correct for Jutland or will I need to remove the walls and replace them with open style railings?

It also appears that the GK had a different style of mast at Jutland, and that the deck with the semi-circular structure (J33) is not used?

One of the posts I read referred to a practice of the German Navy at Jutland painting the rear funnels red for recognition purposes, is this also correct?

Finally, were the large floats (E3) that attach to the main turrets fitted to one or both sides of the turrets. ICM provide enough for both sides but the few pictures that I have seen are not clear,

many thanks,

Pappy

Hello and welcome to the site!

I am working on Grosser Kurfurst for already 3 years (basically due to lack of time, trying several models at the same time and having to work out my skills) so I have some information. I will tell you some questions I know for sure - as to others I will tell you how I did or how did others.

1) wing J21 and J41 - I do not know for sure but this was my choice
2) Send me a private message with your e-mail and I will send you a drawing with rudder location
3) those 'thick walls' mounted to platforms are supposed to represent railings covered by canvass. Injection plastic has its limitations so that those 'wall' on platforms got very thick. Shave them off and replace (you can see example in this thread also). You can imitate canvass my a) tissue paper b) white glue - my choice.
4) Buy yourself WEM Grosser Kurfurst pre-Yutland mast (some 3 pounds) from white metal.
5) Yes I also heard of red rear funnel - but most models are done without this feature - just to be on safe side. However it is your model so you can do as you want.
6) Floats on turrets - this issue I have not investigated yet.

I also use these links as references - models built by experienced modelers so that you can take them as guidelines in various aspects:
- http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
- http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
- http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
- http://www.igkm.de/igkm-eng/Photos3/Sei ... raf.html#0

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I fully agree - there's even a mistake in the KM part, if not two.


Peter, does this apply to the smaller details as well? If so, then the floats would have been either yellow (matching the (later) RAL 1003) or grey (matching the (later) RAL 7012 - Taubengrau). The KM in 1941 had those two colours for their floats (the paints were referred to as "Schlauchbootfarbe"), later (1944 or earlier) a brown (RAL 8011) was added. In b/w photos this yellow is undistinguishable from the light grey of the superstructure while the RAL 7012 is much darker.

Of course, this is all speculation as we do not know if even those colours survived into the KM paint regulations or if they tried to re-invent the wheel.

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

Oops, I did not know the scheme was wrong...thought color scheme for Kaiserliche marine in German is fully reliable and it was presented by someone as 'last word' (I do not remember from where but I got such impression) ...I already sent some references to it on other forums...will have to tell guys immediately.

Thank you Peter and Olaf for pointing on that. Would it be possible for us to correct it at least for WWI ships:
Unterwasserschiff: RAL 3011. Correct? If not which is correct?
Wasserlinienpass: RAL 7015. Correct? if not which is correct?
Rumpf: RAL 7038. Correct? If not which is correct?
Aufbauten: RAL 7035. Correct? If not which is correct?

I think if we find reliable information this can be useful for all guys reading this thread and building WWI capital ships. Too late for me but I hope I am building not the last Kaiserliche Schiffe.

Yevgeniy
P.S. Have 2 month forced break from building due to my studies.

Hi Yevgeniy ~ The problem is that the RAL numbers weren’t around during WWI, they were introduced in 1927, if I’m not mistaken. I’m not sure if they took one colour and named it RAL-yadda-yadda or if they took the RAL-number and said “well, that looks close to the light grey of the navy, let’s make it a standard for them”.

I can only speak for the WWII Kriegsmarine where they had RAL numbers for most of their paints and when it comes to the overall paint scheme, the so-called peacetime livery, it hadn’t changed since 1896. (?)


No, not correct. RAL 3011 was the colour used for lightships (upper hull), signs (accident prevention) etc.
The colour for the antifouling below the hull was RAL 8013 which is out of production since a couple of decades. I asked the German RAL Institute a couple of years ago about RAL 8013 and if they have a sample for sale. Unfortunately not, but the closest match would be the number 040 30 30 from their RAL DESIGN product range. These numbers are CieLab values and if you run them through a converter you will then have the following RGB values: 140-65-43. I know, mixing colours upon a computer screen is not the wisest idea but it should give you at least an overall impression of this colour.
For the antifouling there was an alternative colour, a mix of RAL 3009 and 3013 but I have no idea about the mixing ratio. If you have access to Revell paints, then I would recommend their #37 which matches RAL 3009. It should be okay for a scale representation of 8013. But this is just my opinion …


The KM used RAL 7016, a pretty dark tone. The 7015 appears way too light.


No, much too light. The KM used RAL 7000 for their hulls. This colour is still in use today, the ships of the Federal German Navy are wearing this (overall). The colour has a very subtle hint of blue in it.


A few sources claim that this was an alternative colour for the RAL 7001. However, my copies of the German paint regulations (1941 and 1944) just state the 7001 (which does not mean that a shipyard used a different but somehow matching colour).


If you would like to add scale-effect then you probably won’t slab those ‘scale 1/1’ RAL colours on your model. You could buy those paints (e.g. WEM, Revell, Modelmaster and others) and use them as a starting point and fade them down a bit.

Happy painting ~ Olaf

Dear Olaf,

Thank you very much for your time and such detailed clarification. Everything is clear now. I have already told 'guys on other forum' new information and translated in Russian your message.

We had a discussion there and members have provided me with this great link http://german-navy.tripod.com/sms_paint-overview.htm on this site http://german-navy.tripod.com Information on those links fully confirms your provided data.

On main page of this site there is a phrase "Special thanks to Peter Lienau for setting me straight on many of the details and providing me with invaluable information" so I think the data on this site also correspond to Peter's knowledge.

Now I do not know if I shall delete the scheme we have discussed before - probably not because otherwise later discussion will not be understandable to a reader - I will just add a notice in my message.

Thank you for clarifying once again.

Yevgeniy

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Peter,

You are adding treasure-facts each time you are participating in the discussion. Thank you.

I will translate it for mates on Russian forum also building those ships later on in the evening.
- one - http://www.tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2375
- second - http://www.tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2293
- third - http://www.tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2241&p=1 where some of your information was already translated by me.

Yevgeniy

Now this is something we can work with, HA! Sounds like a lot of 'guesstimating' was involved when they painted their ships.

I always though that they added ground coal to the paint used for steel decks in order to make them 'anti-slip' ...

Thanks for sharing, Peter!

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

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