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 Post subject: Re: SMS Konig
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Barry.6728 wrote:
I'm new to the forum so if this is old stuff please forgive me. I just got the ICM Konig and have a few questions: What were the decks made of, teak or oak? And I've seen some pics of the model and some of the upper decks seem to be a reddish color? I am going to use the White Ensign paints that are designed for WW1 German ships, has anyone out there have any experience with them? Thanks so much, more questions will probably come as I get into it more. Thanks.


All my reference materials show the decks being quite light - but no b&w photo can be a true guide so if you're going to try to multi-shade the deck somehow (there are several ways to do this, none of them easy) you might want to start with a color that is recognizably wooden - I think I started with Tamiya deck tan and worked toward buff. If you start with buff you'd end with white which might be too much of a good thing. Check some of the above remarks about the panel lines: because they're raised on ICM kits, you're facing different problems than if they were recessed.

I have several White Ensign that I use as color chips for tricky things like US Navy or Deck Blue. They're enamels and I don't have the dedication to use them for a long project. No quibbles with their quality. Revell of Germany makes a paint called Aqua Color that is available on eBay or from European or UK sources on the internet. They have lovely RAL colors including 7000 and 7001. They call RAL 7001 "silken grey" and it's listed as a satin paint. There's no question that the two colors contrast considerably more than they appear to on some web sites that show German Navy paint colors.

Best of luck: I don't think it qualifies as an easy build but Dreadnoughts unfortunately don't grow on trees. (You may have better luck than I did, but I would go on the assumptions that you will have to make metal topmasts and yards: the plastic for those pieces is very weak and the parts are connected to the sprues with enough plastic to float a plastic navy.)

Eric

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Thanks for the helpful comments Eric. Just got the kit in the mail, I can't wait to grt going. I want to use a real chain for the anchor, what size do I need? It said in the instructions that the ladders on the side are wood, wouldn't they be metal? I'm sure there will be more questions coming, thanks for all the help.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:20 pm 
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I screwed up on the chain. (You'll have to sand the one embedded off to use a substitute.) I got one that was the right scale but had too many links per inch. A couple of places sell them and they'll tell you how many links there are. Kind of look at the deck, count links, and match them up.

If you use PE ladders it won't matter. I bought a little PE bending gadget from White Ensign: wish I'd done that long ago because it made those fine bends required to make ladders much easier. I made my Konig as she would have appeared at sea and conveniently dispensed with access ladders - those are a PE task of major scale. You could use the plastic ones provided and nobody would notice from five feet, but ladders are probably worth the effort for PE. You can also get railings and ladders that are generic and will work fine. The only PE beyond them that I used was the crane and funnel covers - both could have been scratch built. Frankly I think some of the small PE is not worth it. You will have to think about the torpedo nets. If you want to do those, you'll need PE, and Konig had them at Jutland and removed them immediately after. I dispensed with nets and I'm very glad I did. A better modeler would be braver no doubt. But, as noted, you'll need to scratch topmasts and yards: no way will that soft plastic hold a proper rigging. (I think the pieces would break off the sprues anyway.) It's really pretty easy. You might want to get a piece of glass and cover it with saran wrap or wax paper: super glue doesn't stick to either. Then lay the brass rod pieces on the glass, give them a good dose of CA, and they'll come nicely off when dry.

The gents that noted the measurements are off on Konig are right. How you handle that is up to you. They describe some major surgery that would fit the bill. I cut some pieces down to size and lived with blemishes that only I know about. Indeed, there were a lot of corners cut: I'm not sure any of the major fittings were really clean and many a slot or pin was removed in favor of the eyeball. Luckily, the deck fits reasonably well. ICM is not Tamiya as you will find out. But it's a lovely model once done.

Get very acquainted with this thread. Check out the Konigs made on the gallery for some inspiration. Keep us posted.
Eric

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:33 am 
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Thanks for your input Eric.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:21 am 
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Hi all :wave_1: ,

Still planing to make one of this beauties :thumbs_up_1: , but always stoped about only one question: Have any of you any idea about underwater inlets/outlets? I sure about this: main condenser inlet and discharge, ammo room flood valves, seachests, trim and double hull holes. There´s no ship without them :scratch: :anyone:
Any info, or somewhere to go for further research?

Other question. Is posible a Markgraf or Grosser Kurfurst with early foremast and without net shelf?

Thanks in advance,

Santi :thanks:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:56 am 
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Santi....?


Is that old chum Santi Caro....?

:welcome: to modelwarships.com !

Send me an e-mail and I will send you some scans of an article that Falk Pletscher did way back for PSM Magazine

He adresses some of the differences and hiccups with the kit quite well.

Best Wishes

Jim Baumann

jbys1==============@================tiscali.co.uk ( remove the = = = )

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:32 am 
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Hey Jim!

The same old chap! Older and more baldy by now :lol_4:

Cool to hear from you again :thumbs_up_1: .

Email send.

Santi Caro


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:37 pm 
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After reading this (in my non mother language), just a question :

what is the best PE for a pre-jutland :

GMM or WEM ?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:43 pm 
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The WEM set is -- in my view superior- in every way for pre-Jutland fit- apart from the funnel grilles...

( the GMM items are more correct)

The rails are much finer, and you get decent boat details for the motorboats., net shelves and brailing davits for the nets.


When I built my Koenig back in 2001 ...I used both PE sets, with the GMM set supplying only a few parts.

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

As usual--its better to have more PE sets than just one--you can then pick and choose what you want to use/discard

Good luck

Jim Baumann

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:53 pm 
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This might be a dumb question, but are any of the 4 kits post Jutland fit with torpedo nets removed? I like the clean look.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:33 pm 
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There's no reason you can't simply leave off the torpedo netting. I did and it saved a bucket of time. As I recall there are some alternate parts to be used for changes made for post-Jutland German ships. I think the same is true with WEM PE. You might also check http://www.sms-navy.com/paint/sms_paint-overview.htm for an article about German WWI paint schemes. The author claims the circles on the turrets didn't appear until October 1917 - a claim I find very credible. That means you could skip those. I did. I didn't think the decals would lay down well and was in no mood to paint them.

I don't doubt the superior detail of WEM PE for Konig. However, I ran out of railing and used some generic PE to finish it. Also built some AFV submarines that came with PE. None was as delicate as WEM. They were also a lot easier to work with. Perhaps there's a trade-off involved here to get that very fine detail. There was a thread "PE Makers Created Equal" here and several people give their opinions on the various brands.

Eric

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:57 am 
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I just received the box of my model and i have few questions before going for optional orders :

1 - where to found the wood deck for this model ? Look like unavailable for the moment (except here but rather expensive : http://www.freetimehobbies.com/scd350001-teak.aspx).

2 - Is this wood deck going to take place of the "plastic" one in the box ?

3 - how to paint the superstructures (alone on the grap or after, when the deck is already installed and using masking tape (as i will probably invest in airbrush) ?

4 - If i choose to install the version with "bridges" on the front superstructures, is it also possible to ad the torpedo net and the pre-1917 mast ?

5 - what is the best color chart :
- the humbrol indicated in the box of the ICM kit ?
- this ones : http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/IGN1.htm
- or this ones ? http://german-navy.tripod.com/SMS_No9_1896-1916-s.jpg
- other suggestions ?

6 - in which PE are the scales for the funnels ?

Regarding my choices on 3, are this colors still ok with "history" ?

thanks for your help and attention ;-)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:07 pm 
Hi: I've just got the ICM Kronprinz. I want to build it pre-Jutland. I have the WEM PE-set for the Konig class battleships. I've read all the posts under this topic and I'm still not sure about the bridges. In 1915 would there be wings on the lower and or upper bridges? ICM 's directions only show a top view of the 1918 build, and it still has the lower wings. I read in the WEM directions that in the early days Konig and Grosser Kurfurst had the extended lower wings and were later removed. In a post I read that only Konig as the flag ship had wings on the upper admiral's deck? So what about Kronprinz 1915?
I've looked at all the wonderful builds and the only one of Kronprinz doesn't appear to have any bridge wings. Also I know about the forward mast being different are there any detailed drawings of it so I can scratch build it? I read that the life rafts were not installed until 1917 was this due to the loss of weight when the torpedo nets were removed? (change in ballast?)
Any help for my Kronprinz build would be helpful.
Thank you'
Chris Anderson


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:09 am 
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frenchinamst wrote:
I just received the box of my model and i have few questions before going for optional orders :

1 - where to found the wood deck for this model ? Look like unavailable for the moment (except here but rather expensive : http://www.freetimehobbies.com/scd350001-teak.aspx).

2 - Is this wood deck going to take place of the "plastic" one in the box ?

3 - how to paint the superstructures (alone on the grap or after, when the deck is already installed and using masking tape (as i will probably invest in airbrush) ?

4 - If i choose to install the version with "bridges" on the front superstructures, is it also possible to ad the torpedo net and the pre-1917 mast ?

5 - what is the best color chart :
- the humbrol indicated in the box of the ICM kit ?
- this ones : http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/brochure/IGN1.htm
- or this ones ? http://german-navy.tripod.com/SMS_No9_1896-1916-s.jpg
- other suggestions ?

If you don't want to use enamels, Revell Germany Aqua Color has both RAL7000 (squirrel grey in Tanner's article at german-navy.tripod.com) and RAL7001 (silver grey). Those will serve, as I understand it, for the basic hull and superstructure colors for German warships in both wars. (There's a full color chart on Revell Germany's web site: search "Aqua Color.") I like Aqua Color paints a lot. They airbrush nicely and hand brush as well as Vallejo. They don't cover as well as some paints so you want to put on multiple thin coats. The sequence you use to paint a large warship is not set in stone. I make it as modular as possible because you're really going to need to paint the deck prior to major assembly.
Eric

6 - in which PE are the scales for the funnels ?

Regarding my choices on 3, are this colors still ok with "history" ?

thanks for your help and attention ;-)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:11 pm 
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color chart say also that vertical part of turrets are mat natural wood (Humbrol 110), so not mat light grey like the hull over the waterline... Is it also the color for the vertical part of the superstructures (not the canvas who's hangin for camo but metal cabins and rooms)... ? I know from general marine rules that vertical part are always from same color on the hardbuilding...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:27 pm 
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color chart say also that vertical part of turrets are mat natural wood (Humbrol 110), so not mat light grey like the hull over the waterline...


Really? I think not-!

-I would have thought the vertical part of the turret should be the same colour as the barbette

the same colour as the remainder of the superstructiure

WW 1 High seas Battleships had darker hulls than superstructure if I remember corretcly

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:53 pm 
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I think he's confused the turret colour with that of the square rafts that are on the turret sides. The instuctions call for these to be natural wood if I recall correctly.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:18 pm 
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According to Tanner's article, which has very good sources indeed, the German vessels of both world wars were of the same basic color scheme: reddish brown below the water line, a very dark grey to mark the waterline, a neutral gray or "squirrel" gray (RAL 7000) from waterline to superstructure, and a silver grey (RAL 7001) for the superstructure. The major difference (and it isn't much) in WWI dealt with a different way of painting masts after Jutland: schemes below:

Image

Image

There was brown trim and some areas painted linoleum, some dark gray but it varied somewhat according to the ship. ID markers also existed and changed: Check:

http://www.sms-navy.com/paint/sms_paint-overview.htm

What I never figured out was what to paint the superstructure housing the secondary armament as it receded from hull and had deck underneath: I found examples of other models that had either 7000 or 7001: I went with RAL 7001 because I thought it looked neater. Anyway, except for the area below the waterline, if you want to paint a German surface ship of either war you'll need RAL7000 and RAL7001. Subs are different: they had a dark, muddy grey below the waterline, no reddish-brown and RAL 7000, 7001 or maybe anthracite grey above: some even had some camo. Sure haven't read or seen anything about brown turrets. (Too bad: too much grey in ships. I wish there was some British racing green - that would make a slick cruiser.)
Eric

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:56 pm 
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May I rember everyone that, although the painting scheme of German ships remained the same during two world wars, the colours shifted slightly in between those wars.

RAL was not started before the mid-1920s, and consequently speaking of RAL 7000 and 7001 only refers to ships painted after that decennium.

In the First World War the shades of grey were considerably lighter that those RAL colours of the thirties. Convince yourself: WW 1 battleships were much lighter than say the Gneisenau or Bismarck in WW 2. Unfortunately we don't have colour reference charts of WW 1, so definite statements cannot be made, only that those main ship colours were definitely lighter than their WW 2 countgerparts!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:06 pm 
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This is from Tanner's article and lists the sources he used:

One of the more difficult aspects of building models of German ships, especially those from World War I, is the lack of authoritative English language documentation on their outfit and color, and the difficulty finding foreign language books that may fill the gap. Luckily some e-mail inquiries of mine were answered by a model builder and historian in Germany named Peter Lienau, who suggested I get a copy of "German Warships 1815-1945 Volume I: Major Surface Vessels" by Erich Gröner and revised by Dieter Jung and Martin Maass. In a very methodical manner the book details the history and fates of all major German Navy combatants up to World War II and provides detailed, albeit small, drawings of most major vessels.

In response to a query I had on how to properly paint the SMS Hindenburg, Peter responded, "It's officially acknowledged that both, the Imperial High Seas Fleet (during WW1) and the Kriegsmarine (during WW2), were using the same colour schemes based on order of Apr-15-1896. So we can refer to a ‘Colour-Card' used by the Kriegsmarine-Shipyard Wilhelmshaven in 1944." Conveniently, a full color version of that chart is included in a book Peter sent me (autographed by the author!), "Anstriche und Tarnanstriche der deutschen Kriegsmarine," by Dieter Jung, Arno Abendroth, and Norbert Kelling, a very informative book on paint and camouflage schemes of the WWII German Kriegsmarine, it's only drawback is that it is written completely in German. But it more than makes up for that with detailed photos, some in color, of various WWII German ships, both combatant and merchant.

With the coming of war in 1914, heavy units of the German Navy were painted in a pattern adopted in 1896, referred to in Gröner's "German Warships" as "Colour Scheme No. 9". Used by most ships in home waters, it was based on the use of increasingly lighter shades of grey as you climbed from the waterline to the superstructure, with the hull below the waterline red-brown (referred to as Lfd. Nr. 5 on the above mentioned Colour-Card, or RAL 8013). The waterline on these capital ships was painted Anthracite Grey (Lfd. Nr. 1), and started at the lowest level of the armor belt (on battlecruisers this was about 2.4 meters (8 feet) below the designed waterline (or c.w.l.) and rose to a point 1.0 meter the c.w.l. This dark grey was also used for the inside areas of the Admiral's Bridge, Conning Tower, the Compass Platform, and on the decks of the superstructure if that area was covered by wooden gratings, while sheets of Linoleum covered various areas of other decks. The colour of the Linoleum was a reddish brown. Single "sheets" of Linoleum were fixed on the deck with 2" broad stripes of brass. The use onboard depends on the time of construction and the type.


Here is "Colour Scheme No. 9:
Image

Perhaps I read it wrong, but it sounds to me that Mr. Tanner's prime source is making the argument that the ships of the two wars did use the same paint. How Tanner's sources compensated for translating the 1896 system into RAL 850 (1927) I don't know. I used Tanner's article for Konig a few months back and more recently I referred to an article by Dougie Martindale for Subsim on U-Boat colors. He started his piece (54 pages long) with a discussion of RAL. As you can see, an exact color match was not possible. However, the men in 1925-27 who established RAL 840 had ready access to KM paint chips: indeed, there were several pre-1914 vessels still in service with Germany's small navy at that time. So I can't solve anything. Here's what Martindale had to say:
Eric
On the colour cards and the 1944 edition of Nr. 31, the colour of the
Kriegsmarine paints were cross-referenced to the nearest RAL codes. The
Reichsausschuss für Lieferbedingungen - RAL - (Committee of the German Reich for
Terms and Conditions of Sale) had been founded by the private sector and the
German government in 1925. RAL’s original task had been to standardise precise
technical terms of delivery and sale of colours for the purpose of rationalisation. The
initial range of 40 RAL colours was introduced in 1927, many years after the First
World War Imperial High Seas Fleet had been using Hellgrau 50 and other German
naval paints on their battleships. These same German naval paints were used in the
Second World War Kriegsmarine. As the German naval paints pre-dated the
foundation of the RAL, it follows that these paints cannot have had an exact RAL
equivalent. The RAL codes that were cross-referenced to the German naval paints in
the painting regulations were the closest match to them rather than a direct match.
By the late 1930s, the RAL Register numbered more than 100 shades. In 1939
and 1940 the Register was revised, and re-named RAL 840R (R = revised). This
colour collection was re-examined in 1953, when many colours were scrapped. The
scrapped colours included those which had been in military use in the Third Reich. A
further review took place in 1961 and again in 1976, when an internationally used
colour measurement system was laid down. Due to environmental issues, certain
pigments in use in the 1940s are not allowed to be used today. Pigments are unique,
and although RAL tried to obtain the best match for their older colours, certain slight
colour changes between today’s RAL colours and those of the 1940s are inevitable.
This, for us, equates to a further variance between the colour of the Kriegsmarine
paints and today’s RAL colours.


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