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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:03 pm 
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Another of those things I never thought I'd see in injection plastic is now in-hand: a 1:350 scale Schleswig-Holstein, courtesy of Trumpeter!

So... anyone have any good recommendation for references on S-H and her sister Schlesein? I've been looking around for years and been amazed by the total lack of attention given to the last two German battleships afloat. What I have seen is fragmentary and inconsistent in the extreme.

The 1935 fit the kit comes in is very elegant, but I'd like to know what (if anything) need be done for a September 1, 1939 fit; and also what fitting she'd've had in her camouflage days (and for that matter, when it was and what she was doing at the time? I've seen the picture but never with a reliable caption) Likewise, what would it take to turn her into a May 1945 Schlesein - "greatly increased AA armament" is a might bit vague on details...

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:41 am 
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You're hitting on a very interesting subject indeed!

Just before it further perpetuates: the correct spelling of the sister ship is 'Schlesien', not Schlesein. Holstein is spelled correctly though: it rimes with English 'wine', while Schlesien rhimes with 'Asian'.

To Anglophones, the German 'ie' and 'ei' look very much the same, but are in fact totally different vowels: 'ie' is pronounced more or less like English 'ee' (or in this case en as a double vovel 'ia'), while 'ei' is pronounced like 'I'. So 'Bier' in German is almost the same like 'beer' in English,and the word 'writer' in English has the same vowels ast the German translation 'Schreiber'.

It always causes a chuckle in Germans when we read words like 'Marinefleiger' (must be Marineflieger) or 'Schwienhund' (Schweinhund), it immediately reveals the writer as being Anglophone and not aware of German pronunciation. :heh:

But the subject of these two battleships is certainly worth a good conversation on this forum! :smallsmile:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Thanks, Maarten

Actually, I took 4 years of German in high school and am well aware of the diphthong issue and even looked it up before writing the name... but then screwed it up anyway. Actually, I think there's a mental block leading me in that direction, since whenever I try to pronounce the name, the "ei" sound flows better from my American English-accustomed mouth. So, not "shlesine" but "shleseen"

Just tried Googling it again and both spellings produced results... no help there...

I may just have to buy a few of these... eager to start building!

Regarding the kit: one drawback is that Trumpeter went to the other extreme this time - rather than overdone hull plating, there's none at all! IN the days of heavy, lapping plates and riveting, I think it could use some surface detail.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:36 pm 
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SeanF wrote:
Thanks, Maarten

Actually, I took 4 years of German in high school and am well aware of the diphthong issue and even looked it up before writing the name... but then screwed it up anyway. Actually, I think there's a mental block leading me in that direction, since whenever I try to pronounce the name, the "ei" sound flows better from my American English-accustomed mouth. So, not "shlesine" but "shleseen"

Just tried Googling it again and both spellings produced results... no help there...

I may just have to buy a few of these... eager to start building!

Regarding the kit: one drawback is that Trumpeter went to the other extreme this time - rather than overdone hull plating, there's none at all! IN the days of heavy, lapping plates and riveting, I think it could use some surface detail.

- Sean F.

Hey Sean, you're doing pretty well then! But just try it: say 'Asian' a few times, then 'Shl-Asian', and you have achieved it! Please remark, the emphasis is on the first syllabe (like in Asian), not on the second as you might be tempted.

But let's get on with our chat about those coming kits. I can't wait either to get my hand on one of those. :smallsmile:

And you certainly have a point about the hull plating. We'll can try to find a shell expansion plan, but the chance finding it will be very slim I'm afraid.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:06 pm 
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A friend of mine is an avid paper modeler, and he's offered to let me borrow the Wilhelmshaven 1:250 scale kit - if he has one (i.e. if it's in the stash, and if he can find it) Otherwise I may just order one myself. There may be some possibilities in that direction for some plating info, and other details as well. Should see him later tonight - I'll let you know.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:02 am 
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Hi Sean,

The HMV paper models are superb, and so are those from GPM for that matter. But I haven't found much hull skin detail on those models, neither above nor below the waterline. Only the heavy armor plating on SMS Baden is shown. So I would check that before you order the kit, as these aren't cheap nowadays.

Now I'm thinking of it, the other kits we have of German WW1 subjects, the ICM Königs or the Emden/Dresden from Revell and also the recent Seydlitz from Hobby Boss, are all lacking that skin detail. And looking further, most modelers building German WW1 ships from scratch, seem to do without that skin detail.

Maybe our search has been attempted before, and proved fruitless?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:28 am 
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Maarten -

After looking through a lot of photos online of the Deutschland class and its contemporaries I realize that the plating lines are incredibly hard to see in most cases. You have to be right next to the ship, or you'd need a decent amount of rust, for the lines to be visible at all. And even more so in 1930s shots when the hull was freshly painted. I can see why Trumpeter and Wilhelmshaven would come to the decision they did. The Trumpeter box art portrays them very faintly as rust lines along the joints - a very good representation of what I saw across numerous pictures. It's a surface detail that needs to be handled very subtly, if at all. If I do anything about it, I'll probably either lay down a couple extra layers of primer in alternating bands just to give it a faint hint of depth variation, or create a paint finish effect at the end of the hull painting process.

Attachment:
File comment: Trumpeter kit hull
S-H Hull.gif
S-H Hull.gif [ 98.39 KiB | Viewed 572 times ]


I hadn't even looked at it for the first couple days, but this box has some prime-grade Engrish! Not quite as hilarious as the KV-2's "quick fried tower" but very amusing nonetheless. Here, a brief history of the precisely 127.7112 meter-long "Schleswig - Holstein Stein":

Attachment:
File comment: The ship's history delivered in flawless Oxford Engrish!
S-H History.gif
S-H History.gif [ 100.73 KiB | Viewed 572 times ]


- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:17 am 
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The Sleswig-Holstein Stein and the Schlesien Sien! But I think I'm gonna like the kit anyway.

As for the detail on German ship hulls, I'm getting the impression that these were constructed paying effort to minimise the irregularities. I realized there is quite some photo material of the underside of these ships: when they were salvaged from the bottom of Scapa Flow, during the twenties and the thirties, after their purposeful scuttling in view of the Versailles peace negotiations running sour for the Germans. http://www.naval-history.net/WW1z12aCox.htm
Even at close range the hull skin overlaps are quite minimal, not much to trip over when playing cricket:
Attachment:
WW1z12Cox-17.JPG
WW1z12Cox-17.JPG [ 185.3 KiB | Viewed 525 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:40 pm 
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SeanF wrote:
Another of those things I never thought I'd see in injection plastic is now in-hand: a 1:350 scale Schleswig-Holstein, courtesy of Trumpeter!

So... anyone have any good recommendation for references on S-H and her sister Schlesein? I've been looking around for years and been amazed by the total lack of attention given to the last two German battleships afloat. What I have seen is fragmentary and inconsistent in the extreme.

The 1935 fit the kit comes in is very elegant, but I'd like to know what (if anything) need be done for a September 1, 1939 fit; and also what fitting she'd've had in her camouflage days (and for that matter, when it was and what she was doing at the time? I've seen the picture but never with a reliable caption) Likewise, what would it take to turn her into a May 1945 Schlesein - "greatly increased AA armament" is a might bit vague on details...

- Sean F.


Sean,
I have not started a real search for info on the September 1939 fit of the Schleswig-Holstein but the few pictures and movie footage from 1st Sept 1939 seem to depict 2.0 cm /C30 guns on each side of the ship. The rear most gun is on an added platform next to the Boat crane. The other gun, according to film footage and some existing pictures, seems to be on an upper level of the forward Superstructure.
Some other photo's (most undated), show one gun under and slightly behind the bridge wings. It appears to be just forward of the boat deck area, positioned on a newly added semi-circular structure. However, these photo's may be later war photo's and not 1939.

Film footage of September 1st, 1939:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Uko02IoDg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7v9iUvyIMk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrF5D0udkJQ

Stills from the film footage below.

Gun at Boat Crane area:
Image

With Gun crew:
Image

Look to the lower right corner in the above picture... Is that another gun down on the boat deck?


Bridge level 20mm gun and crew:

Image



There are some well-designed kits made in the past that depict some variations.

The WSW 1/700 resin kit included 4- 2.0 cm guns and a 2.0 cm Flakvierling 38 gun (4 barrel). No added platforms on this kit though. Photo of the WSW parts:
http://wsw-Modellbau.de/WebRoot/Store/S ... in-Kit.jpg

Also, see this link for more info: http://www.steelnavy.com/WSWSchleswigHolstein.htm


These is a paper kit by GPM which seems to have a very good depiction of these gun mounts.
See here: https://sklep.gpm.pl/pub/thumbs/91b/-produkty-243503-dsc00194-jpg-1900-1200.jpg
I am unsure if the GPM kit is supposed to be Sept 1st 1939. Looks to me like an upgrade sometime in 1940.

The older WILEMSHAVEN paper kit at 1/250 was said to be accurate but I have not seen this kit. There are some Photos on the Web but lower quality.

Another interpretation is the Neptun 1/1250 metal model of the Schleswig-Holstein. I would need to see this model to forge an opinion.

There is also a 1/100 fiberglass hull w/resin parts kit here: http://www.ml-modelships.com.ua/mlmodel ... hip_ru.dta

And finally a 1/70th scale "Scratch-Build" at this German site:
http://www.der-lustige-modellbauer.com/ ... stein-1-70

On the 1/70 scale kit the 2.0cm guns are next to the boat crane on the extended platform and the other two 2.0 cm guns are placed on the bridge.
Look about 3/4 of the way down this page:
http://www.der-lustige-modellbauer.com/t21913p750-linienschiff-schleswig-holstein-1-70
There are two more 20mm guns placed on the rear superstructure. I have been unable to confirm this location thru Photos..

I consider this 1/70th scratch-built version to be the best so far.

I am not suggesting anyone follow the design of some previous kit. I am suggesting there is no consensus between the previous kits on several areas of the ship. For my example I have only mentioned those 2.0cm guns which were on board at the start of WW2. The movie footage shows 2 rapid fire guns,and possibly a third, shooting tracers from at least 2 different locations on the port side of the ship. The footage also shows the gun crews, albeit briefly. I hope these posts will generate some interest and perhaps some knowledgeable modelers could add to the discussion to help turn the Trumpeter 1935 kit into the September '39 ship that fired the "first shot" of the Second World war.

Nino

P.S. Regarding Pictures: Look for the swastika flag to ensure you are not looking at Pre-WW2 photos.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:41 am 
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Jim,

Trumpeter is also due to release an "as built" version of Schleiswig-Holstein is her pre-WWI, three stack version. I am looking forward to this!


Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:47 pm 
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William wrote:
Jim,

Trumpeter is also due to release an "as built" version of Schleiswig-Holstein is her pre-WWI, three stack version. I am looking forward to this!


Bill


Thanks Bill. Three Stacks! No waiting, WooHoo! :woo_hoo:

The price has been coming down on the Schleswig-Holstein 1935 kit. I always wondered why Trumpeter did a 1935 version instead of a 1939. There is not much info out there for the Start of War "look" but adding 2 platforms and a few 20mm guns would have been an easy initial start. Hey, if the kits were perfect we would not need these forums.

Between Zvezda,Trumpeter, Revell, and ICM, it looks like we now have a good representation of WW1 Dreadnought and Pre-Dreadnought plastic kits. Hope we see more.
( Okay... and Hasegawa.)
EDIT: And HobbyBoss. (Thanks Miguel!)

Jim (Nino)


Last edited by Nino on Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:46 am 
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Nino wrote:
Between Zvezda,Trumpeter, Revell, and ICM, it looks like we now have a good representation of WW1 Dreadnought and Pre-Dreadnought plastic kits. Hope we see more.
( Okay... and Hasegawa.)

Jim (Nino)


Don't forget HobbyBoss ,even is part of Trumpeter ,but thankfully we have the Agamemnon Class,the Danton Class and the gorgeous Seydlitz

Also very eager on the Schleswig Holstein 1905 ,I have the 1935 version and IMO is very beautiful,have no clue on accuracy but looks really nice ,for the 1905 wish to make one of her sisters ,perhaps the Hannover or Pommern.

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