The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Mon May 21, 2018 9:16 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 312 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:10 am 
I should probably try and remember my username as it's been a while since I've been on this site, but I am currently working on the 1/700 trumpeter uss california 1945. I usually do extensive research on layouts and such on current builds, but somehow I failed to realize that the CA went through a final refit in 1945 and there are subtle differences from her 1944 layout. problem is I started painting her as her 1944 ms32 16d. My question is, how hard would it be, and what would I have to do to revert her to her 1944 layout? I know the platform along her superstructure was removed, more quads were added as well as AA gun placements were added on her decking. Is it possible or should I just drop the ms32 (even though the hull and super structure are painted that way) and paint it in the solid 5-N?


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:26 am 
Hello, new here

But I'm currently build the trumpeter 1/700 uss california 1945. I usually do extensive research before I start a build, bu5 somehow I failed to realize the differences in her 1944 and 1945 refits. The main issue is I started building and painting the California as her 1944 ms 32 16d camo. My question is, what exactly would I need to do to revert her from her 1945 refit to her 1944 layout?


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Downey, California
Let's start with this: How far along is assembly, and/or how easily could you break loose what is built? Aside from the difference at the top of the superstructure, the main issue is the revision to positions & shapes of the 20mm platforms, as almost all the singles were swapped out to twins but the particulars of the layout change significantly on the main deck levels. You'd need the deck pieces from the West Virginia 1945 kit to properly do CA in her dazzle pattern. If you're not too far along and really want an accurate dazzle-pattern CA, you could get that WV kit for a replacement (and hull, if your CA deck is already glued solidly to the other hull) and upper superstructure pieces to pair with the other parts you already have painted.

If stuff is already too solidly anchored then you'll have to go blue if you want accuracy. (Or really mess with people's expectations and do a late '45 fit with bare wood decks and overall haze gray paint)

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:20 am
Posts: 68
Location: Lompoc, California
SeanF wrote:
Let's start with this: How far along is assembly, and/or how easily could you break loose what is built? Aside from the difference at the top of the superstructure, the main issue is the revision to positions & shapes of the 20mm platforms, as almost all the singles were swapped out to twins but the particulars of the layout change significantly on the main deck levels. You'd need the deck pieces from the West Virginia 1945 kit to properly do CA in her dazzle pattern. If you're not too far along and really want an accurate dazzle-pattern CA, you could get that WV kit for a replacement (and hull, if your CA deck is already glued solidly to the other hull) and upper superstructure pieces to pair with the other parts you already have painted.

If stuff is already too solidly anchored then you'll have to go blue if you want accuracy. (Or really mess with people's expectations and do a late '45 fit with bare wood decks and overall haze gray paint)

- Sean F.


I have the superstructure (bridge, funnel and aft structures), and decking secure to the hull. Was assembling the individual pieces for the 20mm platforms, but they are not glued down as I was about to paint them. On one side I do have the mount for the fire director down and, idk what it is, like a open platform used for rigging, not sure what it's used for, that is next to the fire director. That's where I noticed something was off between what I was doing and all my reference material. Might be to far along to use those parts from the WV kit sadly. What's the main difference between the 45 CA and the 45 WV? Or was the California the only one they did that final refit to? What parts would I be using?

Was hoping I wouldn't have to do the blue, I just find it underwhelming. Already have a (poorly) done south dakota in the blue and to me it's bland lol. Just my opinion though.

_________________
Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57

Under construction:
1/700 USS Sigourney DD-643 (70%)
1/700 USS Montana BB-67 (20% complete)

Waiting Drydock
ROS o.s (Samek) 1/700 USS Guam CB-2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:10 pm
Posts: 105
Betelguese90 wrote:
I have the superstructure (bridge, funnel and aft structures), and decking secure to the hull. Was assembling the individual pieces for the 20mm platforms, but they are not glued down as I was about to paint them. On one side I do have the mount for the fire director down and, idk what it is, like a open platform used for rigging, not sure what it's used for, that is next to the fire director. That's where I noticed something was off between what I was doing and all my reference material. Might be to far along to use those parts from the WV kit sadly. What's the main difference between the 45 CA and the 45 WV? Or was the California the only one they did that final refit to? What parts would I be using?

Was hoping I wouldn't have to do the blue, I just find it underwhelming. Already have a (poorly) done south dakota in the blue and to me it's bland lol. Just my opinion though.

Get Profile Morskie's California book. It is in her 1944 fit.
Also, you might be better using parts from the Tennessee. Very similar to California in 1944. You would have to play mix and match with some parts, like for the superstructure and 20mm guns. California had single 20mm mounts and did not get twin 20mm's until her '45 refit.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:53 am 
bioshock73 wrote:
Betelguese90 wrote:
I have the superstructure (bridge, funnel and aft structures), and decking secure to the hull. Was assembling the individual pieces for the 20mm platforms, but they are not glued down as I was about to paint them. On one side I do have the mount for the fire director down and, idk what it is, like a open platform used for rigging, not sure what it's used for, that is next to the fire director. That's where I noticed something was off between what I was doing and all my reference material. Might be to far along to use those parts from the WV kit sadly. What's the main difference between the 45 CA and the 45 WV? Or was the California the only one they did that final refit to? What parts would I be using?

Was hoping I wouldn't have to do the blue, I just find it underwhelming. Already have a (poorly) done south dakota in the blue and to me it's bland lol. Just my opinion though.

Get Profile Morskie's California book. It is in her 1944 fit.
Also, you might be better using parts from the Tennessee. Very similar to California in 1944. You would have to play mix and match with some parts, like for the superstructure and 20mm guns. California had single 20mm mounts and did not get twin 20mm's until her '45 refit.


What we're the main differences between the Tennessee and california? I know even 2 sister ships in the same class with have differences between eachother.

I'll have to look into that book, possibly get the Tennessee if it's similar to the California in her 1944 layout and just swap out the superstructure to start. I haven't even gotten to the point of mounting the guns yet anyways lol. But did the Iowas use the single or were they always the twin 20mms? I and cause I have a Tamiya uss Missouri 1943 that I have as a spare for parts.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Downey, California
The '45 West Virginia kit is the one you want to start with if you want a California '44 (or to swipe the decks/platforms to backdate the already-started CA '45 kit). The AA layout is nearly identical.
Best not start with or swipe from the '44 Tennessee kit, as the AA layout is different enough from a '44 CA that you might as well scratchbuild the mods directly on the '45 CA kit.
Since all the Trumpeter/Pit Road Big 5 kits come with a complete set of 14" and 16" turrets there is no downside to building a '44 CA from their '45 WV kit, and several downsides to converting from the '44 TN or '45 CA kits.

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:20 am
Posts: 68
Location: Lompoc, California
SeanF wrote:
The '45 West Virginia kit is the one you want to start with if you want a California '44 (or to swipe the decks/platforms to backdate the already-started CA '45 kit). The AA layout is nearly identical.
Best not start with or swipe from the '44 Tennessee kit, as the AA layout is different enough from a '44 CA that you might as well scratchbuild the mods directly on the '45 CA kit.
Since all the Trumpeter/Pit Road Big 5 kits come with a complete set of 14" and 16" turrets there is no downside to building a '44 CA from their '45 WV kit, and several downsides to converting from the '44 TN or '45 CA kits.

- Sean F.


OK awesome. I will look into the '45 West Virginia kit for the '44 california. Was wondering how different the Tennessee was from the California since 2 sister ships aren't always the same. I appreciate the help!

_________________
Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57

Under construction:
1/700 USS Sigourney DD-643 (70%)
1/700 USS Montana BB-67 (20% complete)

Waiting Drydock
ROS o.s (Samek) 1/700 USS Guam CB-2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:10 pm
Posts: 105
SeanF wrote:
The '45 West Virginia kit is the one you want to start with if you want a California '44 (or to swipe the decks/platforms to backdate the already-started CA '45 kit). The AA layout is nearly identical.
Best not start with or swipe from the '44 Tennessee kit, as the AA layout is different enough from a '44 CA that you might as well scratchbuild the mods directly on the '45 CA kit.
Since all the Trumpeter/Pit Road Big 5 kits come with a complete set of 14" and 16" turrets there is no downside to building a '44 CA from their '45 WV kit, and several downsides to converting from the '44 TN or '45 CA kits.

- Sean F.

I looked at David Doyle's USS California. The pics showed more 20's than the sketches in Profile Morskie's booklet. The sketches are wrong. After more research, Tennesse's kit would not be a good sub. Sean's right.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Downey, California
I didn't buy the '45 CA, so don't have the actual parts in-hand.
Looking at what I can find on-line, it appears the '45 CA kit might not be too bad a starting-off point after all. It seems to have the same 20mm shields as the WV kit to the sides of turret 2 (which seems to actually be incorrect for CA's final fit. See: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014415.jpg - it looks like only the outermost pair, overhanging the edge of the deck, was retained after this refit). The 20mm shields on the aft deck, aft of the pair of 40mm tubs, look to be about right, too - just needing 20mm singles instead of twins. The main AA change you'll need to make aside from the 20mm twin/single swapping is to delete the midship pair of 40mm tubs and replace them with a set of 4 20mm singles on each side. See: http://navsource.org/archives/01/061/014402e.jpg
Cut out a notch between the tower and funnel (See: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014445.jpg - note that the object obscuring the view between them is a searchlight in the foreground - and another beyond it, for that matter.), use Kingfishers instead of Seahawks, and I think you can salvage that dazzle pattern without cannibalizing another kit. I don't know if the necessary midship 20mm platforms are in your kit as leftover parts - you may have to scratchbuild them, and it'll take a little bit of sheet plastic to panel-in the openings when the superstructure notch is cut out, but these are relatively simple tasks.

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:10 pm
Posts: 105
SeanF wrote:
I didn't buy the '45 CA, so don't have the actual parts in-hand.
Looking at what I can find on-line, it appears the '45 CA kit might not be too bad a starting-off point after all. It seems to have the same 20mm shields as the WV kit to the sides of turret 2 (which seems to actually be incorrect for CA's final fit. See: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014415.jpg - it looks like only the outermost pair, overhanging the edge of the deck, was retained after this refit). The 20mm shields on the aft deck, aft of the pair of 40mm tubs, look to be about right, too - just needing 20mm singles instead of twins. The main AA change you'll need to make aside from the 20mm twin/single swapping is to delete the midship pair of 40mm tubs and replace them with a set of 4 20mm singles on each side. See: http://navsource.org/archives/01/061/014402e.jpg
Cut out a notch between the tower and funnel (See: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014445.jpg - note that the object obscuring the view between them is a searchlight in the foreground - and another beyond it, for that matter.), use Kingfishers instead of Seahawks, and I think you can salvage that dazzle pattern without cannibalizing another kit. I don't know if the necessary midship 20mm platforms are in your kit as leftover parts - you may have to scratchbuild them, and it'll take a little bit of sheet plastic to panel-in the openings when the superstructure notch is cut out, but these are relatively simple tasks.

- Sean F.

I have the California kit, it does not have the parts for the 20mm platforms. He's better off using a WV kit as you suggested previously. The area between the top of the tower and funnel on the California kit is flat (for lack of a better description) with the tower and the searchlight platforms removed. http://navsource.org/archives/01/044/014492x.jpg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:20 am
Posts: 68
Location: Lompoc, California
SeanF wrote:
I didn't buy the '45 CA, so don't have the actual parts in-hand.
Looking at what I can find on-line, it appears the '45 CA kit might not be too bad a starting-off point after all. It seems to have the same 20mm shields as the WV kit to the sides of turret 2 (which seems to actually be incorrect for CA's final fit. See: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014415.jpg - it looks like only the outermost pair, overhanging the edge of the deck, was retained after this refit). The 20mm shields on the aft deck, aft of the pair of 40mm tubs, look to be about right, too - just needing 20mm singles instead of twins. The main AA change you'll need to make aside from the 20mm twin/single swapping is to delete the midship pair of 40mm tubs and replace them with a set of 4 20mm singles on each side. See: http://navsource.org/archives/01/061/014402e.jpg
Cut out a notch between the tower and funnel (See: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014445.jpg - note that the object obscuring the view between them is a searchlight in the foreground - and another beyond it, for that matter.), use Kingfishers instead of Seahawks, and I think you can salvage that dazzle pattern without cannibalizing another kit. I don't know if the necessary midship 20mm platforms are in your kit as leftover parts - you may have to scratchbuild them, and it'll take a little bit of sheet plastic to panel-in the openings when the superstructure notch is cut out, but these are relatively simple tasks.

- Sean F.


Cutting in that notch shouldn't be to difficult. It retains most of the curvature and outline of the seperate structure and funnel. Quick cut and reshaping of the plastic should work. It also has a platform where those search lights are (wrong dimensions but same location). I'd have to scratch build the 20mm platforms as well, but the kit came with an extra super structure peice that I could probably salvage, reshape and use as the platform(as it's suspended on the side rather then fully down to the deck). I can't find a clear picture, but are the 20mm and 40mm placements by turret 3 the same in her 44 layout or were they changed alot in the 45 refit? As for the 40mm placements along the midship, were those any different from the different layouts as well? Can't tell, but main one I'm wondering about is the 40mm placements above and behind the forward 5inch turrets. If anything, I have spare parts from the numerous usn ships I've done, and also have a complete 43 Missouri kit (spare parts) that I can mess with too.

_________________
Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57

Under construction:
1/700 USS Sigourney DD-643 (70%)
1/700 USS Montana BB-67 (20% complete)

Waiting Drydock
ROS o.s (Samek) 1/700 USS Guam CB-2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:10 pm
Posts: 105
Betelguese90 wrote:
Cutting in that notch shouldn't be to difficult. It retains most of the curvature and outline of the seperate structure and funnel. Quick cut and reshaping of the plastic should work. It also has a platform where those search lights are (wrong dimensions but same location). I'd have to scratch build the 20mm platforms as well, but the kit came with an extra super structure peice that I could probably salvage, reshape and use as the platform(as it's suspended on the side rather then fully down to the deck). I can't find a clear picture, but are the 20mm and 40mm placements by turret 3 the same in her 44 layout or were they changed alot in the 45 refit? As for the 40mm placements along the midship, were those any different from the different layouts as well? Can't tell, but main one I'm wondering about is the 40mm placements above and behind the forward 5inch turrets. If anything, I have spare parts from the numerous usn ships I've done, and also have a complete 43 Missouri kit (spare parts) that I can mess with too.

The 40mm tubs at the forward 5" guns were there after her rebuild, same with Tennessee and West Virginia. Number of 20mm mounts were reduced in the '45 refit when she got twin 20mm's.

If you are able to find it, get the book "USS California" by David Doyle. Lots of very good pictures of her '44 configuration and '45 refit that are not on http://www.navsource.org starting at page 104 of the book.
For the 20's by turret 3, there's 5 by the portside 40mm mount and 4 by the starboard side. There's a row of 4 20mm's on each side of the forward 40mm mount that's behind turret 2. On the deck below just forward of the rows of 4, those rows have 6 20mm's.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:28 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Downey, California
The David Doyle book is, indeed, excellent and probably contains more definitive answers - my copy is stashed in a storage unit at the moment or I'd've been referencing it already! :) I might be able to get over there and retrieve it tonight. This conversation has gotten me curious about several points.

When starting fresh with a '44 CA in mind, the WV kit is definitely the place to start. But now I'm confident that the mistakenly dazzled '45 CA kit can be salvaged with relatively little grief. We're almost there...

- Sean F.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:20 am
Posts: 68
Location: Lompoc, California
SeanF wrote:
The David Doyle book is, indeed, excellent and probably contains more definitive answers - my copy is stashed in a storage unit at the moment or I'd've been referencing it already! :) I might be able to get over there and retrieve it tonight. This conversation has gotten me curious about several points.

When starting fresh with a '44 CA in mind, the WV kit is definitely the place to start. But now I'm confident that the mistakenly dazzled '45 CA kit can be salvaged with relatively little grief. We're almost there...

- Sean F.



Honestly, the hardest thing to do would be to make the midship 20mm platforms. I will have to lleave out one set of 40mm behind the 3rd set of aft 5inch turrets and replace it with another 20mm platforms that holds 2 guns on each, sand down on of the walls for a 20mm placement attached to the 40mm next to turret 3 on one side. I think the WV shares the same superstructure attached to the funnel as the '45 CA kit. I have seen pictures where someone used the WV kit as the CA and it has the same shape. Found a big difference where the Trumpeter '45 CA isn't accurate: the kit keeps the 20mm placement off to the side of turret 2, while in the actual layout, that placement was removed, so luckily I don't have to fret on that.

Biggest thing now, is finding a plan or close up of that midship 20mm platform. Seen a few, but not enough to really help a whole lot.

_________________
Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57

Under construction:
1/700 USS Sigourney DD-643 (70%)
1/700 USS Montana BB-67 (20% complete)

Waiting Drydock
ROS o.s (Samek) 1/700 USS Guam CB-2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:10 pm
Posts: 105
Betelguese90 wrote:

Honestly, the hardest thing to do would be to make the midship 20mm platforms. I will have to lleave out one set of 40mm behind the 3rd set of aft 5inch turrets and replace it with another 20mm platforms that holds 2 guns on each, sand down on of the walls for a 20mm placement attached to the 40mm next to turret 3 on one side. I think the WV shares the same superstructure attached to the funnel as the '45 CA kit. I have seen pictures where someone used the WV kit as the CA and it has the same shape. Found a big difference where the Trumpeter '45 CA isn't accurate: the kit keeps the 20mm placement off to the side of turret 2, while in the actual layout, that placement was removed, so luckily I don't have to fret on that.

Biggest thing now, is finding a plan or close up of that midship 20mm platform. Seen a few, but not enough to really help a whole lot.

Have you considered ordering an individual sprue from another kit that has those 20mm tubs in question?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:11 pm
Posts: 139
Location: Lawndale, CA USA
I have a resin USS California 1944 that could be made into a 44' or 45' that I've taken apart and not going to use because I like the Trumpy kits better. I do have the resin 20 mm platforms that were midship and a resin conning tower with stack etc that I could send you free and if less than $5.00 postage free as well. Parts are not perfect but will work. I'm in California so unless your in ? I will pay for post and send.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:20 am
Posts: 68
Location: Lompoc, California
garyrunnalls wrote:
I have a resin USS California 1944 that could be made into a 44' or 45' that I've taken apart and not going to use because I like the Trumpy kits better. I do have the resin 20 mm platforms that were midship and a resin conning tower with stack etc that I could send you free and if less than $5.00 postage free as well. Parts are not perfect but will work. I'm in California so unless your in ? I will pay for post and send.



That would be awesome actually! I took parts from my Tamiya Missouri kit and attemoted to make a makeshift 20mm platforms from that. The dimensions are off, as it's to long and narrow so it looks awkward. live in california as well so it won't be to much.

_________________
Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57

Under construction:
1/700 USS Sigourney DD-643 (70%)
1/700 USS Montana BB-67 (20% complete)

Waiting Drydock
ROS o.s (Samek) 1/700 USS Guam CB-2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:11 pm
Posts: 139
Location: Lawndale, CA USA
I will get them ready and mail when I get your address, glad you could use them.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:20 am
Posts: 68
Location: Lompoc, California
garyrunnalls wrote:
I will get them ready and mail when I get your address, glad you could use them.



Pmed you my address. A big help and I thank you.

_________________
Complete:
1/700 USS California BB-44
1/700 USS South Dakota BB-57

Under construction:
1/700 USS Sigourney DD-643 (70%)
1/700 USS Montana BB-67 (20% complete)

Waiting Drydock
ROS o.s (Samek) 1/700 USS Guam CB-2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 312 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Timmy C and 5 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group