The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:49 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 825 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
Hello everyone

First time in.

I'm building a Fujimi's Haruna 1944 and as it appears 1/700 version is different from 1/350. I cannot find any exact referance about the upgrades in 1944 (there were two).
I then decided to invest in 3D Haruna by Kagero Publishing only to find out yet a third version of the ship.

Any help about how to make a 1/350 version most accurate is appreciated.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6131
Location: New York City
Her TROM notes some of the changes for all of her refits: http://www.combinedfleet.com/haruna.htm


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6131
Location: New York City
I may have posted this before:


Attachments:
Haruna bridge layout, 1944 vs 42, Gakken #21.jpg
Haruna bridge layout, 1944 vs 42, Gakken #21.jpg [ 89.25 KiB | Viewed 990 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
Thank you Dan K.

Unfortunately one can only guess about what's been done during those upgrades.
TROM states:
"16 December 1943-26 February 1944 :
Arrives at Sasebo. Four secondary guns are landed. Four 12.7-cm AA guns (2 x 2) and twelve 25-mm AA guns (4 x 3) are installed. Two Type 0 hydrophones are installed".

(Probably these are the two 12.7 mounts between the funnels, two triplets on the platform infront of the bridge and two on the back superstructure)

"24 June 1944:
Arrives at Sasebo. Drydocked for battle damage repairs and refit. Type 13 radar and additional 25-mm. AA guns are installed".

(This is the most critical one. Since there is no air search radar in the kit, one can deduct that the 1/350 model depicts Haruna before this date, and 1/700 after.
This would explain all the changes to platforms around the front funnel - replacing two 110cm searchlight with 25mm triplets and installing the 60 cm searchlights just under the bridge. Two additional triplets on the aft superstructure, the ones on the main gun turrets, additional pair to the ones on the left and right of the bridge (above the paravanes) and replacing all of the twins with triple mounts.
However, few things are still unexplained:
1. Where is the topmost triplet on AA platform of the pagoda tower - not on either of the kits - but present in Kagero's rendering
2.The shape of lower part of the superstructure - beneath the bridge was widened and causeway leading to AA telemeters and directors ommited or plated over.
3. According to Kagero Publishing the semicircular protrusion at the back of pagoda (with two signal lights) became more substantial and rectangular and two single 25 mm were placed there.
4. A lot of see trough spaces at the back of pagoda were also plated over.
5. A single 25mm triplet was installed on the port side (abaft of the 12.7 under the main mast.

Some of the changes might have been done during her stay in Kure
12 December 1944:
The HARUNA group arrives at Kure.

1 January 1945:
At Kure. BatDiv 3 is deactivated. HARUNA is reassigned to the reactivated BatDiv 1, Second Fleet. During 1945, HARUNA's battle damage is mostly repaired and she is camouflaged gray with very pale gray stripes on her turrets.

Any thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6131
Location: New York City
One, I would take the Kagero publication with a grain of salt. While I think the renderings wonderful, it's not always clear upon what information it is based. Errors do crop up. Depends on what they used for references.

Two, the Fujimi kit seems to be in early 1944 fit, based on the AA layout.

Three, Takao Ishibishi might be the foremost IJN BB expert in Japan as of recent times. In 2007, he published an enormous illustrated volume on IJN BBs from 1868-1945. Below are two scans of the same page of Haruna in February (top) and October(bottom) 1944. If I were to trust any one source, this would be it. HTH,


Attachments:
Haruna AA layout 2 vs 10-1944, Ishibashi vol top sm.jpg
Haruna AA layout 2 vs 10-1944, Ishibashi vol top sm.jpg [ 188.17 KiB | Viewed 909 times ]
Haruna AA layout, Ishibashi 2 vs 10-1944 vol bot.jpg
Haruna AA layout, Ishibashi 2 vs 10-1944 vol bot.jpg [ 191.46 KiB | Viewed 909 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
Many thanks - this is a brilliant piece of information. If I'm not mistaken that book is in Japanese only.
Is it worth buying it even when one is not fluent in Japanese language?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6131
Location: New York City
If you're into the BBs, then yes. But, it's long out of production. There were only 500 or 1000 copies printed. It was quite pricey.

You could check Ebay, though I think if it were posted anywhere, it would be on the Japanese version.


Attachments:
Cover.jpg
Cover.jpg [ 30.42 KiB | Viewed 816 times ]
Ishibashi BB book - Fuso & Ise.jpg
Ishibashi BB book - Fuso & Ise.jpg [ 101.41 KiB | Viewed 816 times ]
Ishibashi BB book - Ise class.jpg
Ishibashi BB book - Ise class.jpg [ 89.86 KiB | Viewed 816 times ]
Ishibashi BB book - Hiei.jpg
Ishibashi BB book - Hiei.jpg [ 94.61 KiB | Viewed 816 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:25 am
Posts: 2036
Location: Los Angeles and Houston
Any idea of what the bridge tower would have looked like when it was mounted?

Because the kits show a very different bridge from the Pre-1942/43 bridge (prior to when it had the additional 127mm DP guns added, and additional 25mm AA Guns).

And it would be nice to know if I can bash something together from the Late-war and Earlier-war kits for a Kongo from Aug-Dec 1942.

MB

P.S. As usual, the Japanese appear to have wasted this asset if she had Radar. Still no Fire Control Radar, but something is better than nothing.

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6131
Location: New York City
I'm not clear on what time frame(s) you seek for which ship - Haruna?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
According to Ishibashi the three triple 25mms on the aft bridge were at the same level. This seems a bit odd since the support beams for at least one pair were already there when they removed the fire control posts.

Anyway - the decision has been made.
I'm more than halfway through a bulid and I'm switching the ship to October 1944 appearence.
It might not be the most accurate model, but I have an unused Kongo PE kit from Flyhawk and I will be scavenging parts from there.

To make matter worse, I build my ships with optical fibers to depict lights. How I'll manage to squeeze all the stuff into superstructure is beyond me.

BTW.
How long it takes for Moderator to lift the restrictions on posting?

...Eh nevermind - lifted - thanks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6131
Location: New York City
Quote:
According to Ishibashi the three triple 25mms on the aft bridge were at the same level.


You're not mistaking the pair on the top of turret #3 as being on the same level, from the overhead view?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
No....:

Image

This is the first time I have ever seen this setup.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6131
Location: New York City
We lack a good overhead or port side view, postwar. However, I believe Ishibashi does have it correct.


Attachments:
Haruna sunk at Kure, postwar, sized.jpg
Haruna sunk at Kure, postwar, sized.jpg [ 142.31 KiB | Viewed 728 times ]
Haruna sunk at Kure, postwar, crop.jpg
Haruna sunk at Kure, postwar, crop.jpg [ 56.41 KiB | Viewed 728 times ]
Haruna aft superstructure, sink at Kure postwar.jpg
Haruna aft superstructure, sink at Kure postwar.jpg [ 122.42 KiB | Viewed 728 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
To answer one of your previous questions...The Kagero's Haruna gives credit to Mutsuo Uchiyama.

Now, according to this picture the original triple platform (on the left) is at the same level as top of the superstructure, the right one is clearly raised and extends way past the vertical mid point of the funnel. Ishibashi's drawing here is thus incorrect.
Marked with yellow is a gangway which is lower than the platform.
I think Kagero has it right.
Image

The sponson on the pagoda tower also seems to narrow on Ishibashy's drawing and I would go with Kagero as well.
Please keep in mind I'm not in favor of anyone, I just wish to get a clear impression.

I'm like a bloke who had a drink to much and has double/triple vision and is desperately trying to unite them ;-)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:56 am
Posts: 6131
Location: New York City
Mucho is definitely an expert; he's been kind enough to participate several times on the CASF Aoba & Furutaka class threads.

Agreed, the platforms are staggered to the rear.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
Tiers 3,5 and 6 are remodified according to Kagero.
Still lacking some detailes which will be added at the final stage after the entire pagoda is ready to be mated with the hull.
I expect some rough handling will be needed.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:01 pm
Posts: 453
YES!!!! I'm so excited my favorite battleship IJN Haruna 1/350 is being released and it address the issues mentioned above !!! https://hlj.com/product/FUJ60055 ! Also would it be possible to use Pontos Kongo 1/350 PE set on Haruna??


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
Great, yet another version (third one of the same company) of the ship that has been re-modified twice in 1944.
This is turning into a conundrum.
What Fujimi did with this kit is a shortcut. They used minimal effort in “updating” their existing kit to fit the appearance of 1944/45 version.
It differs greatly from their 1/700 kit which has a lot of flaws on it’s own.

What interests me the most is the placement of the triplets around the aft superstructure.
Somehow this seems a very plausible solution, but I have some reservations.

Image

1. There is no massive support column (No.1)
However in reality this would make a lot of sense if two triplets were added on this extended platform. The Fujimi may be right about this.
2. The support beam (no.2) appears very long. Much longer than before her reconstruction.
Question is: Why would the Japanese change this if the original triplets stayed unchanged (as depicted in the new kit).

Image

Anyone wants to share his view on this mystery ?

Could it be it was something like this?

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:33 pm
Posts: 201
Location: The Savo Island
What interests me the most is the placement of the triplets around the aft superstructure.
Somehow this seems a very plausible solution, but I have some reservations.

1. There is no massive support column (No.1)
However in reality this would make a lot of sense if two triplets were added on this extended platform. The Fujimi may be right about this.
2. The support beam (no.2) appears very long. Much longer than before her reconstruction.
Question is: Why would the Japanese change this if the original triplets stayed unchanged (as depicted in the new kit).

Anyone wants to share his view on this mystery ?
Could it be it was something like this?
・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・

hi,mates;
nr.1= my take is, only 1 beam-support will suffice, becausethe the sponson is also supported by the 25mm AA ammo hoist tower, and this beam-support length can be shorter than you expressed temporalilly on the model.I think i have had an image showing this.
nr.2= the sponson here is also supported by a very large bracket with one punched hole, it would just need a beam support of ordinary length.is my another take.
As i have no knowledge about the depiction in the new kit,I may not be in a position to discuss,I would stay out.

cheers,
mucho,


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 16
Hi Mucho,

Thank You very much for your contribution.
Here are some pictures of the upcoming kit so that we all know what we are talking about.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

I agree that the support beam is shorter and the ammo hoist bares part of the load, however none of these features are depicted in a new kit.

Cheers,
Jurij


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 825 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group