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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:41 pm 
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hi, Jurij,
I have some reason to believe that Fujimi didn´t have competent staff(s) or resarcher(s) at the time of making the new kit of Haruna 1944. The ammo hoist in question(portside) is seen on their 1/350 demo model. There ought to be this ammo hoist at starboard,too,but this is missing on it. They must have failed to perceive it on archive photos as well as existence of the very large brackets and the support beams.

http://nabeck.web.fc2.com/wr12.htm

br
mucho,


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:35 am 
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I'm still struggling with locations of the AA armament.

@ Mucho

The link you kindly provided does not depict the Haruna. It’s either Kongo or Kirishima.

I’ve been searching the web for any plausible explanation for location of anti-aircraft guns. Her final compliment was 30 triple, two (?) double and 28 single.
According to this picture the foremost platform around aft superstructure was raised and there was no platform between the raised one and the one in front of the second funnel – underneath tripod mast.

Image

This makes this Fujimi 1/700 kit irrelevant:
Image

I’ve been testing this arrangment from new Fujimi 1/350 kit only to find out there isn’t enough room for two triple guns + elevator shaft on one extended platform.
(Which is missing in this kit.)

Image

I looked up this video and made some stills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6RAfIwsnR8

Unfortunately there is no clear shot of the area in question, however based on this picture there was no third platform extending over the main C turret.

Image

This led me to a conclusion that there were only two platforms on either side of the aft superstructure containing for triple guns which makes this depiction fairly accurate:

Image

However, if you count the triplets there is 30 of them which is fine – but where the heck is a pair of double ones?

There is a slight possibility that one of those in illustration is in fact a double one, so there must be another platform somewhere.
Looking at the above video (at 1:41) I found this:

Image

Judging by the angle it is slightly aft of the long removed gun from casemate no.7 Could it be a platform for a triple one or a shield for a single one?

I just can’t believe how annoying this conundrum is. Surely there must be a decent picture somewhere of something weighing over 32.000 tons.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:59 pm 
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Location: The Savo Island
hi, again.
I have been septical of positoning of 2 x triple 25mm AA guns here,before, recalling the author of the CG was quite pressed for the deadline,he had to spring over many search points.

My understanding is, the beam-supports ought to be right at the bottom center of the MGs to increase stability to prevent vibrations. The rendered images and the kit models as well as other sources don´t show this correctly.

The ammo hoist(s) here is malplaced in the author´s image,too.It should be at where I drew it in orange color.

Then 2 x triple AA mgs ought to be on either side on the aircraft deck,making a total of 30 in al,l doesn´t it?
(However, if you count the triplets there is 30 of them which is fine – but where the heck is a pair of double ones?)

As to a pair of double ones you mentioned --- i have no visual or other material to show them at present. Where they are supposed to be placed --one possibility will be around the stern deck area, perhaps or not.
Hoping some solutions might have been arrived at.

mucho,


Attachments:
Haruna rend.200 ammhoist & beamsupport 1 triple 25mm AA gun only.jpg
Haruna rend.200 ammhoist & beamsupport 1 triple 25mm AA gun only.jpg [ 157.68 KiB | Viewed 1539 times ]


Last edited by Mutsuo Sasaki on Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:53 am 
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I think it´s utmost possible mr.Ishibashi´s interpretation of the shape of the AA mg sponson hanging over the C-turret which JuriJ is doubting may be erroneous. IMHO these sponsons look like separated or spit into two.
Am duly suspecting his illust of the platform where the ammo hoist is connceted to is overdimensioned,too.( I put quesion marks in orange color)
mucho

ps. The demonnstration photos Fujimi referered to as Haruna 350 are not Haruna´s. Looks like Kongo´s with Kirishima-like funnels. :d


Attachments:
illustrated AA sponson over C-turret collage.jpg
illustrated AA sponson over C-turret collage.jpg [ 67.96 KiB | Viewed 1514 times ]


Last edited by Mutsuo Sasaki on Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:11 am 
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Attachment:
triple AA mg bulwark axz.jpg
triple AA mg bulwark axz.jpg [ 94.71 KiB | Viewed 1516 times ]
JiriJ wrote :
Unfortunately there is no clear shot of the area in question, however based on this picture there was no third platform extending over the main C turret.

This led me to a conclusion that there were only two platforms on either side of the aft superstructure containing for triple guns which makes this depiction fairly accurate:

However, if you count the triplets there is 30 of them which is fine – but where the heck is a pair of double ones?

There is a slight possibility that one of those in illustration is in fact a double one, so there must be another platform somewhere.
Looking at the above video (at 1:41) I found this:

Judging by the angle it is slightly aft of the long removed gun from casemate no.7 Could it be a platform for a triple one or a shield for a single one?

I just can’t believe how annoying this conundrum is. Surely there must be a decent picture somewhere of something weighing over 32.000 tons.[/quote]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Something to add to:
Here is another shot taken of portside where the gun tab is recognizable(sometimes it is submerged in the water)
I bet it´s dimension is the same as those of other triple guntubs.

mucho,


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VTS_01_1.VOB_000781096.jpg
VTS_01_1.VOB_000781096.jpg [ 185.57 KiB | Viewed 1516 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:21 am 
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Hi Mucho,

I’m glad we are on the same page here.
Those would be very good spots for additional triplets. Good firing arcs and not much hassle with adding platforms. I’m planning to remodel the ship according to this:
Marked in Green.

Image

However, the number of triplets is now 32, which means two of them are twins – but which ones.
My bet would be the topmost pair on the superstructure (Marked in Yellow) for simple reason of adding too much weight on already overburdened structure.

One question...Is this an ammo hoist or just some weird play of shadows?

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:06 am 
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hi,again,

Regarding the AA armament of Haruna 1944 at the time of the Philippine Opr. some sources say she had 24 x triple + 2 dual.
Liet. Fukui Shizuko of IJN shipbuilding dept.wrote this as 28 x triple + 2 dual.
I would very much like to be informed of where 30 xtriple + 2 + dual came from.

With regard to location of these 2 dual AA mgs I took the liberty of attaching a study-image from the author. If re-location was not to take place, location of triple AA mg here may not be correct.(shown in orange color cirle) This would insinuate the dual AA mg (according to the Kure official general arrangement of BB Haruna) plan here could remain unchanged....

mucho,


Attachments:
ASITower.jpg
ASITower.jpg [ 92.51 KiB | Viewed 1436 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:18 am 
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Jirij wrote;
One question...Is this an ammo hoist or just some weird play of shadows?

Image[/quote]
..........................................................My humble answer is;
This must be the ammo hoist while remaining materials used for camouflaging are hanging down here and there.
There are several other visual materials showing the hoist.One or two were already posted in this thread. I´m in retrospect that the author got so inspired by hitherto unknown sources,that he got a new idea that there actually are 4 x AA mg ammo hoists around the rear bridge/tripods.


mucho,


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:31 am 
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Hi,

Sorry for my late reply.


Mutsuo Sasaki wrote:
I would very much like to be informed of where 30 xtriple + 2 + dual came from.


It is Mark Stille - Imperial Japanese Navy Battleships (Osprey Publishing) page 19.

Regarding the hoist;

On this picture the ammo hoist seems to be besides the superstructure and not beside the funnel...

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:07 pm 
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]Hi,

Sorry for my late reply.




I would very much like to be informed of where 30 xtriple + 2 + dual came from.[/quote]

It is Mark Stille - Imperial Japanese Navy Battleships (Osprey Publishing) page 19.

Regarding the hoist;

On this picture the ammo hoist seems to be besides the superstructure and not beside the funnel...

・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・
hi, again
Have been watching the same pic as you have posted. I think it was the late Bille Somerville who dug this image out some 1o years ago. He then posted it on IJN forum.
A crusial issue will be the CG writer has made a fundermental mistake in location of the mg gun tubs around the anti-heat shield of the nr.2 smoke stack to protect the AA platform ,and to suppose the ammno hoist goes through the floor of this AA platform to bear the burden of weight of the platform, the hoist ought to be located here,attached is a work-in progress image then. I hope a model or a mock-up model of this will help find out more precise location of the hoist. I dont´t remember when he has changed the numbers of AA triple guns from 1 to 2, though.

And the gangway ought to be much longer....

thanks. About the total numbers of the triple/dual AA guns, i will be writing back later.

mucho,


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ASI136Apnt.jpg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:47 pm 
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I took the liberty to scan the final interpretation from the book. (added some sort of watermark myself).
Image

The placement of the hoist makes sense to me. It's doors(hatch) opens on the top of the superstructure which makes it easy to serve all the guns around it. (No matter how long I look at the following picture, I cannot see one being on the other side).
It would be rather awkward if the extraction point of the hoist would be on the narrow gangway, which means id pierces both platforms.

If I understand correctly, the lines you added to the picture you posted are your interpretation of the extension of the platforms.
I will make a mock up in the following days according to my understanding of the matter.

My guiding principle will be derived from this picture:
Image

Except I will not be extending the gun platform further abaft. I think that the lower platform begins to narrow before the edge of the superstructure and is roughly following its contours.
In my understanding the only thing that was extending over the edge of the superstructure was an observation platform in the middle.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:51 pm 
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hi,
Ammunitions shoud not be exposed to heat-radiation from the smoke stack,so, ammo boxes and guns must be kept within the cover area anti-heat shield provides with. I drew it in green color of line. I can safely say this is not my interpretation, but, is one of rules of IJN´s administration of ordnances.
The location of ammo hoists being symmetrical for strb-and portside,one can narrowly see the starboard one in the image.

And finally or not,the FC gear ought to be in a pair,on either side of the higher AA platform. Time to build to do re-checking. Surely this will be able to tell us much better than descriptions about the placing.
If i had more free time, i´d do this check myself,my hands being tied with building of Takao class cruiser at the moment.
Have a fun!

mucho,


Attachments:
ASI532scj400 pnt.jpg
ASI532scj400 pnt.jpg [ 92.66 KiB | Viewed 1268 times ]
ASIv2zf3c pnt.jpg
ASIv2zf3c pnt.jpg [ 111.31 KiB | Viewed 1268 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:06 am 
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Here is another image to show how the AA gun platform is placed right after the end of the gangway.
The Cg author´s image posted by jurij on Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:21 pm is showing it quite correcty, but not on other CG images of the rear bridge.

About the smoke stacks: The nr.1 ought to be of the same height as that of nr.2.
Kure did this alternation during the 2nd modernization refits.
I will have to say all shipmodels of Haruna 1938-1944, illusts on shipbooks and CG renderings must have somehow failed to realize this...
Whereas,Fujimi´s kitmodels 1/350, 1/700 have the same height for both of the funnels. I bet this will be correct. Matches the general arrangement plan ,June,1944.


mucho,

And finally(probably) I´ll also have to find out where at the rear bridge the Boku-Shikisho(= Air Defence Command Station on the Rear Bridge)is located. In about 4 weeks I will be meeting a top-notch Kongo class researhcer in Tokyo to duscuss the issues.


Attachments:
ASI US Nurses photos,1947.jpg
ASI US Nurses photos,1947.jpg [ 91.04 KiB | Viewed 1174 times ]


Last edited by Mutsuo Sasaki on Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:46 pm 
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Quote:
my hands being tied with building of Takao class cruiser at the moment.


Oh, Mucho, you know we all want to know about this one. What scale (1/100?) and timeframe? Maybe tease us with a photo in the CASF Takao class thread. :smallsmile:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:28 am 
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Dan K wrote:
Quote:
my hands being tied with building of Takao class cruiser at the moment.


Oh, Mucho, you know we all want to know about this one. What scale (1/100?) and timeframe? Maybe tease us with a photo in the CASF Takao class thread. :smallsmile:


hello, Dan,
Have just posted some to Takao´s CASF thread.In 1/100 as usual. :smallsmile:

mucho,


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:19 am 
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I had time to re-check the AA sponsons in question. They don´t overlap each other.
FC gear was added for the Leyte Opr.,so they were located on either side.

mucho,
This is just an interim search, still keep on checking....


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ASIASIHaruna rr brge heimen1944oct added.jpg
ASIASIHaruna rr brge heimen1944oct added.jpg [ 23.67 KiB | Viewed 958 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:47 am 
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Hi,

Thanks for your help.

I'm in the process of finishing the build. It won't be 100 % accurate but I can't go back and start again from the deck level.
I included some of the features that are missing on all comercial kits and I'm reasonably satisfied.

Here is how I believe things around aft superstructure looked like:

Image

This is still "Work in progress" as most of the details are still missing.

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Great work and lighting.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Quite a laborious,nice work. Better go further to finish the model first.
Talked with mr.Suzuki(pres.of Pitroad)on annual NY assoc. meeting 3 days ago here in Tokyo,he may be equal to reflecting new discoveries on Haruna kit model,1/350.

mucho


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to tanaka as corrected 2017-12-10 (1).jpg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Location: Corinth, MS
Messervy wrote:
Image

Awesome work...never seen an IJN BB kit with lights before!

_________________
Image
SSG, MS State Guard


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