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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Need help identifying what the long rectangular mesh looking thing is near the base of West Virginia's main mast. There appears to be one on either side of the mast with a line that runs aft all the way to the face of turret #4.
Here you can see it in the plans and a photo at Pearl.
Any ideas?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:44 pm 
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A picture of the USS Colorado in the Puget Sound Navy Yard, February 9th, 1942. The "Fighting Mary" is visible in the background.
The picture comes from the Norman Friedman's Book "Naval Firepower".

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Thanks for the pic! Very cool! I wonder why they decided to eliminate Colorado's bird bath on the main fighting top. I think maybe the 50cal brownings were getting phased out at the end of '41. It also appears that the MG's in West Virginia's bird bath were removed prior to the attack. Her birdbath was still there but definitely empty. The other three at Pearl still had their MG's in the birdbath.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Stumbled upon this photo dated 18 June 1941 while researching USS Aroostook. In the background, sitting in the dry dock, is USS Maryland. I often wondered if she was already painted into MS-1 before she went to Puget Sound for her refit. She was definitely still in Pre-war light gray in this photo. She also still has her .50 cal machine gun tubs attached to her forward fighting top and her concentration dials (range clocks) on the masts. During this dry dock she received her torpedo blisters.
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At least one of her gun tubs removed from the forward fighting top was attached to the mainmast just above the searchlight platform. This was a very short lived change. I suspect that they quickly realized that this location was always filled with smoke from the stacks so they eliminated it. This photo is dated Aug. '41 after she left Puget Sound.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:55 pm 
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I don't know the exact dates that USS MARYLAND had her 1941 overhaul at PSNY, DANFS and the limited records I have for 1941 don't give dates, but given the work done on her and how long it took for "peacetime" overhauls it had to be at least fours months prior to her leaving PSNY in August 1941. Friedman's USN BATTLESHIPS book (on pg 207) says USS MARYLAND was scheduled to start her overhaul on 17 February 1941 and complete on 20 May 1941. But, also notes that her overhaul actually wasn't finished until 1 August 1941. It appears that she went into PSNY shortly before or after USS ARIZONA and USS NEVADA left in March 1941. I suspect she arrived at PSNY before the directive to paint into Ms 1 was given in April 1941. MARYLAND wouldn't have been painted in her "new" paint scheme until all other work was done. That was standard practice.

As for 20-mm guns replacing the 50-cal MGs. The first production 20-mm guns were not ready to be installed until early December 1941. The USN took the Swedish design and for practical purposes completely redesigned it so it could be mass produced to US standards and all guns would have interchangeable parts, something the Swedish guns lacked. The first 20-mm guns were to be installed during yard periods and the Atlantic Fleet ships had priority (USS HORNET was one of the first ships scheduled to get 20-mm guns). But, the USN was planning on the replacement of the 50-cal MGs during work done in 1941 and locating future placements. Likely the removal of the "birdbath" location had as much to do with compensating for weight added elsewhere as a result of the King Board mods. The 20-mm mounts were heavier than the 50-cal MGs and it was desirable to have the guns closer to ammo resupply. Top of the masts wasn't ideal in that case.

The introduction of 20-mm guns in the Pacific Fleet quickly took priority after 7 December 1941 and as best I can tell started to be installed on various Pacific-based ships in January 1942 (maybe some as early as late December?). USS YORKTOWN and DesRon 2 destroyers transferred from the Atlantic to the Pacific in mid-December 1941 with newly installed (four on each destroyer) 20-mm guns installed in place of the previous 50-cal MGs.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Hank,
Continuing our discussion about the netting inside of the cage mast as seen in this photo.
Image
I agree that this is not vertical netting. I believe it is horizontal netting to catch falling objects. There was probably 4 nets throughout the mast. To me it looks to be about the same spacing that a typical chain linked fence is today. I doubt they were used as a platform for the crew to walk on but I have no idea.
Jeff


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:38 am 
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Jeff wrote:
Quote:
agree that this is not vertical netting. I believe it is horizontal netting to catch falling objects. There was probably 4 nets throughout the mast. To me it looks to be about the same spacing that a typical chain linked fence is today. I doubt they were used as a platform for the crew to walk on but I have no idea.


Last night I looked over quite a few older/cage mast BB photos (336 to be exact) to see what I could find and the 3-4 platforms/mast seem about right as a consistent factor in many of the USN masts. I'm going to take a stab and say that these were actually walkable expanded metal platforms with ladders up to and down from for access. I don't think they were equipment platforms, but more levels for possibly stability within the mast structure itself. One thing I've thought is that due to the angle of the ladders, these platforms provided a landing for the ladder below - so, quite possibly access platforms and nothing more.

It would be interesting if we could find some type of technical reference or historical engineering documents describing how these masts were constructed and what their various parts were defined as being.

Hank

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:53 am 
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Fascinating question. I Googled it, and found an image of a USS Rhode Island mast in 1910 with some men that appear to be standing on such a platform. Link:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news ... d931878872


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:43 pm 
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The interesting thing here in West Virginia's plans is the forward mast has a platform for a Std compass and bell. But there is no mention of any platforms in her mainmast.
https://maritime.org/doc/plans/bb48.pdf


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Having experience in access requirements for refinery distillation towers (eg) here are some observations of the cage mast photos posted compared to my experience (which includes climbing those towers - a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away).

1. Refinery access ladders are caged above about 12' (for entrance). The cages are fall protection. After about a 30' climb (max) there is a side step-off to another platform before continuing the climb. Vertical ladders have these cages and spacing for ease of climbing and personnel protection. This is repeated until the top is reached. Next time you pass by a refinery with tall towers this is quite evident. The platforms can be either plate or "subway grating" such as found in New York and other cities.

2. Battleship cage masts have steeply inclined ladders (at least in the wider lower sections) to reach the control tops. As far as I know this is the only access to the tops. You can see that a climber must transfer from one ladder to another thus needing a safe step-off to make the transfer. The steel mesh "platform" serves as the transfer point and fall protection if one slips. The cage mast itself serves as outward fall protection thus no cages are needed for the ladders.

All this makes sense then and now because crew fall protection is found in all ships and industrial facilities. So the "mesh" on cage masts is horizontal and is made of metal and probably framed for support to allow a safe transfer while climbing under any conditions.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Came across some cool color footage of USS Colorado.
Image

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:25 am 
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Fascinating!

Black top on turret 1, and a "45" on turret 2.

Looks like that dark red-brown non-skid decking material at the conning tower wing platforms, but deck gray over the center structure; and the birdbath tub on the maintop looks like it's in #5 standard gray and not deck gray!

Clearly white face and black numbers on the foremast range clock - but what's that black mass with white pieces hanging from the face of the foretop?

Only 3 MG installed in the maintop.

Can't tell about the top of turret 3, but 4 looks like deck gray.

Could some color adjustment/enhancement be done using the yellow wings of the SOC as a baseline target?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:56 am 
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Here is the link to the film.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pkLuyXPy_eM
The thing on the forward fighting top is the MG tub with about 9 sailors in it. I’m not seeing the red brown decking but I’ll look again.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:26 pm 
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Jeff Sharp wrote:
Came across some cool color footage of USS Colorado.

Image



USS MARYLAND has a 46 more crudely painted on Turret 2 sideways (see link, probably due to the rangefinder), apparently in 1936. Possibly this was temporary for the Fleet Problem XVII in May of that yeayr? Anyone know when and for how long this was added to Turret 2 for air recognition?

http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/us_navy_pages/us_navy_battleship_photos/uss_maryland_bb46/07_uss_maryland_battleship.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:24 pm 
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Planning to laminate the blisters on an unbulged spare Trumpeter hull for the '41 Maryland but have yet to find the dimensions. Any sources or data will be much appreciated.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:22 pm 
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Here is some information I provided concerning the bulge back in October 2015 in the other thread for these ships. See page 8 of the Calling all rebuilt "Big 5" (TN/MD Class) fans.


While looking through my stack of plans from Floating Drydock I came across the plans for the Maryland 1945. I had forgotten I had these, so never looked at them for the bulge issue for the 1/700 Trumpeter Maryland 1941, Maryland 1945 and Colorado 1944 kits. The plan set has one sheet with seven cross sections of the hull with the bulge at 1/8 inch = 1 foot. The larger plan and profile sheets are in 1/16 inch = 1 foot. On the plan the bulge is 12 feet from the top to the waterline. or in 1/700 scale 0.201 inch. The model's hulls all have a height of the bulge from top to waterline at approximately 0.23 inch and adding the baseplate this increases to 0.26 inch. So as noted in this topic earlier the models all set too high. Leaving the base plate off helps some.

The frames are measured along the waterline on the plans with frame 0 at the point where the bow touches the water. Each frame is 4 feet on the scale. Here is what I measured from the plan set.

Frame Top of Bulge width (1/700) Water line bulge width (1/700) distance from Bow at waterline (1/700)
Frame 19 0' (0") 1' (0.017") 76' (1.30")
Frame 40 2.8' (0.048") 4' (0.068") 160' (2.74")
Frame 55 4.0' (0.068") 5.2' (0.089") 220' (3.77")
Frame 74 4.8' (0.082") 6.0' (0.102") 296' (5.07")
Frame 94 4.5' (0.077") 6.0' (0.102") 376' (6.45")
Frame 106 3.0' (0.051") 4.8' (0.082") 424' (7.27")
Frame 124 1.9' (0.032") 3.0' (0.051") 496' (8.50")


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:37 pm 
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I need to take reality check on California’s appearance in early December, 1941. I’ve read thru this thread, others, the countless battle line color discussions going back well over a decade and a half, Tracy’s website, the ship camouflage website, and several other sites. I believe I have a handle on the various directives, the timing of the directives, the issues stemming from the timing, the colors, etc.

Specifically to California: per DANFS, it appears that she emerged from a refit at either Mare Island or Puget Sound in mid-April, 1941 and then rejoined the Pacific Fleet. Given the timing of SHIPS-2 in January, her refit on the mainland, and the timing/issues with the revisions in SHIPS-2 Rev.1 in September, is it most likely that she was still painted in 5D in December? Is there a consensus on this? All thoughts appreciated.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:54 am 
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Based on post attack photos, my own opinion is she was most definitely 5D. She looks almost black in salvage photos.
EDIT: Found the photo I was thinking of:
Attachment:
BB44PHSalvage.jpg
BB44PHSalvage.jpg [ 208.66 KiB | Viewed 24116 times ]

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:13 am 
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From the LIFE archives. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if these are TN or CA, but they are great shots:
Attachment:
LIFEBig5.jpg
LIFEBig5.jpg [ 93.02 KiB | Viewed 24122 times ]

Attachment:
LIFEBig5a.jpg
LIFEBig5a.jpg [ 101.33 KiB | Viewed 24120 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:38 am 
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Judging by where the 5-L starts, it appears to be TN. California 5-L started one deck lower.


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