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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:36 am 
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Wright was a wargamer, not a researcher. He has no idea what colors British warships were painted.
He claims to be able to tell colors from black & white photos. Total fraud.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:14 am 
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JCRAY wrote:
Wright was a wargamer, not a researcher. He has no idea what colors British warships were painted.
He claims to be able to tell colors from black & white photos. Total fraud.


Okay, well I've now been schooled and taken to the woodshed on this book via private message, so I won't use the "D" word again :big_grin: I'm sure the book will still help me but I'll seek second opinions just in case. In case you haven't noticed I'm still new to model ships and trying to do research without the internet.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:58 am 
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There's a thread discussing the series of books at viewtopic.php?f=69&t=157405


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:36 am 
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Okay so the Mal Wright book arrived today...and I see what you mean. But overall I like the book, so far I'm just a novice model builder and I don't strive for 100% historical accuracy (yet). In my order also was HMS Ramillies: The Last Salvo, and HMS Royal Sovereign and her Sister Ships. Unfortunately there are no mentions of what colors were used in the camouflages in these volumes, but I'll enjoy reading about the ships as I build them.

As for Mal's book. Royal Sovereign/Arkhangelsk is a bit odd. He's got the 1940 camouflage correct as there's a few good photographs of this around and it's simple black and white dazzle.

He says the 1943 camo after USA refit kept this pattern until 1945, which makes sense as the photos of Ark in Kola show her still wearing this pattern (photos in previous post of mine). The colors include olive green, blue grey (more blue than grey), white and medium grey. Quite the rainbow!

He says the Soviets kept this camo on receipt of the ship, which of course they did, except he says they 'darkened' it and made the blue-grey just black and made the greys into white, but kept the olive green accents. So his rendition basically states that the ship was entirely black and white with a little but of olive green.

It doesn't make sense, this "darkened" stuff. Black and white photos of the day could be very overexposed in sunlight, so that greys would look like whites instead. This must be how the author interpreted that a camo was "darkened".

I haven't studied his Ramillies camos much but I can already tell it's missing a camouflage that this ship definitely had (see photo attached). Very disappointing.

The conclusion is that several sources (scale modellers on various Russian forums, the Profile Morskie rendition which featured the tan color, Mal Wright) try to make claim about the camouflage of Arkhangelsk and all of them are very different. So I will take pot luck and just roll with one that I like. It's not like anybody can say that it's incorrect, because nobody seems to really know.


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File comment: This Ramillies camo is also featured with a color illustration in the book I ordered (HMS Ramillies: The Last Salvo). It's light grey and that dark band across the middle is blue
early camo.jpg
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:20 am 
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There are color clips with that scheme on Youtube. Try googling British Pacific Fleet in color.
I bought Mal's book when it was released, total BS.
Other research has revealed much, look at Sovereign Hobbies for paint colors.
John


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:07 am 
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JCRAY wrote:
There are color clips with that scheme on Youtube. Try googling British Pacific Fleet in color.
I bought Mal's book when it was released, total BS.
Other research has revealed much, look at Sovereign Hobbies for paint colors.
John


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g74ma4vxYDA I found this, but doesn't have Ramillies. Had QE and KGV class wearing the same camo scheme.

Sovereign Hobbies has already chimed in on this thread and doesn't have any input on the Arkhangelsk.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:41 pm 
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Thanks for posting the link. I don't think there is a King George V class ship on that video clip. The ships seem to be two USN destroyers, either QUILLIAM or ROTHERAM, SUFFOLK, GAMBIA, RENOWN, ILLUSTRIOUS, LONDON, GAMBIA (again), Suffolk (again), a Q class destroyer (probably QUIBERON), a "U" class destroyer (? - can't read the pennant number), an "N" class destroyer, QUEEN ELIZABETH, two more destroyers, RENOWN (again), ILLUSTRIOUS, LONDON (again), VALIANT, RICHELIEU, another Colony class, TROMP and BIRMINGHAM. It's fair to assume that most of the sequences were taken just after the Operation TRANSOM, the air strike on Sourabaya in May 1944, in which case the USN ships were CUMMINGS and FANNING, the second Colony class was KENYA and the "N" class was NEPAL or VAN GALEN.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:35 am 
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Plasma_Frigate wrote:
JCRAY wrote:
There are color clips with that scheme on Youtube. Try googling British Pacific Fleet in color.
I bought Mal's book when it was released, total BS.
Other research has revealed much, look at Sovereign Hobbies for paint colors.
John


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g74ma4vxYDA I found this, but doesn't have Ramillies. Had QE and KGV class wearing the same camo scheme.

Sovereign Hobbies has already chimed in on this thread and doesn't have any input on the Arkhangelsk.
.

That film clip is the BEST reason for NOT caring about the exact shade of any particular colour !

The ships were all sailing by under basically the same lighting conditions and look at all the differences in colours.

.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:42 am 
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Video of Ramillies and other battleships in the Med, 1940, starting at the 8:41 mark:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060007639

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:11 am 
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While researching HMS Royal Oak to build a model I came across the following photos that raise some questions which may be of interest to modellers?

All the plans and models I have seen of HMS Royal Oak thus far depict her shelter deck as being finished with deck planking. However the following photos on the Imperial War Museum website would seem to disprove that theory. The shelter deck (during the First World War at least...) appears to be finished in steel plating as seen here:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205252989
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205252990
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205252499


I intend to model the Royal Oak as seen following her 1934-1936 refit. The only photos of the shelter deck from that era that I can find currently are on Page 178 of R.A. Burt’s British Battleships 1919-1945. These show the general area but it is difficult to clearly see the decking due to all the various clutter. The small portions of the deck that are visible still appear to be steel plated and not planked, which seems logical enough. It would seem unlikely (but not impossible) that the area was retrospectively deck-planked during a refit?

Can anyone shed any additional light on whether her shelter deck was steel plated or deck planked post 1934-1936 refit? My money is on steel plating for now in the absence of any additional evidence. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:05 am 
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Location: England
Royal Oak was Devonport ship. The Devonport Naval Heritage Centre in the South Yard contains a number of artefacts from the dockyard's history. Amongst them is an old model (about 4ft long) of her immediately after her 1934-36 modernisation. It shows a dark grey steel, not wooden, shelter deck.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:03 am 
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Thanks for that, I did not know of the Devonport Naval Heritage Centre. You learn something every day. I must keep it in mind and try and arrange a visit whenever I am next in the U.K.

I did some further searching on the IWM website over the weekend and found this photo. It is HMS Revenge and not HMS Royal Oak but it clearly shows Revenge having a steel plated shelter deck in 1940:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205135890

I will go with a steel shelter deck so. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:43 pm 
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Noted on HobbyEasy site

A new Orange Hobby kit in 1/700 of HMS Royal Oak if like other Orange Hobby kits it should be of good standard.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:40 am 
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At a glance can anyone tell what Royal Sovereign was painted as seen here while she was still Arkhangelsk? Appears to be a two tone scheme, dark hull and lighter upperworks. The funnel is even lighter.
Attachment:
Arkhangelsk 1946.jpg
Arkhangelsk 1946.jpg [ 1.1 MiB | Viewed 1199 times ]





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1/350 British pre-dreadnought battleship HMS Agamemnon


Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Imbedded picture, as link didn't work


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:43 am 
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I used Humbrol No. 5 Admiralty Grey Gloss for the hull and Humbrol No. 196 Light Grey Satin for the superstructure and upperworks on mine. Then Humbrol No. 125 US Dark Grey Satin for the steel decks. All sealed with a coat of Humbrol Matt cote. The colours are a pure guess on my part, I have no idea how accurate or not the shades are?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:16 am 
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Thanks MrChurch. I will improvise the greys. You have an impressive model there. I've never attempted diorama water but yours looks fantastic and 1/500 is a nice scale for such a project... How did you make the hull waterline? (I've already started my hull and glued the halves together.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:39 am 
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Thanks Spopovich. Simple answer is I did not waterline the hull, the full lower hull is actually still there but out of sight below water level.

I carefully prepared the hole in the base and matched the ship up to it. Then finally filling in any remaining gaps with Artist's Medium and cotton wool. Water methods are as per this excellent tutorial here from sargentx:
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=155661


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 5:13 am 
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I posted this in the 'Camouflage and Coatings' section of the board but am re-posting it here to help keep information on the 'R' Class in the one place:

A lovely clear photo here showing the Port Side of H.M.S. Revenge in August 1941 in dazzle camouflage while on Convoy Escort Duty:

https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1975-03-63-4-58


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 5:14 am 
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Again I posted this in the 'Camouflage and Coatings' section of the board but am re-posting it here to help keep information on the 'R' Class in the one place:

I recently bought the Imperial War Museum's 'Royal Navy at War' DVD Box set and was pleasantly surprised to find a special feature on H.M.S. Royal Sovereign at the end of the 'Know Your Own Navy' DVD. Sorry I can't post a link as I think it is currently out of production and i cannot find a permanent link to it. I got mine on Ebay.

Anyway the special feature is a five minute colour film sequence showing scenes featuring the crew on board H.M.S. Royal Sovereign, I estimate sometime in 1940-42. It was not listed in the description of the DVD so came as a pleasant surprise. There are multiple short sequences, as no doubt colour film was outrageously expensive in the early 1940s. No overall views of the ship as it was filmed from on board her but you can clearly see the vivid contrast in the colours of her camouflage scheme. It almost looks black and white in some scenes despite it being colour film, bearing in mind all the usual caveats when trying to judge warship colours from old film.

You can see the Quadruple PomPom on top of one of her turrets in one scene. I am not sure exactly when these were fitted to Royal Sovereign? They were not there in 1940 but were there by October 1941 as seen in photos on the Imperial War Museum Website. So that puts that particular sequence sometime between 1940 and October 1942 when she went to Philadelphia for overhaul. Again there are multiple short sequences and no dates are given so they could have been filmed over a number of months or years?

All told a valuable reference and well worth a look for anyone interested in the 'R' Class.


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:25 am 
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pom-poms installed supposedly early 1942 on "B" & "X" turrets.
https://world-war.co.uk/bb/rs_class.php3


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