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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:32 pm 
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Interesting. This photo is dated October 1941 and she seems to have them in place then?
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140097


(Edited to correct hyperlink)


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 12:52 am 
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They are not listed in her entry in the 6 monthly armament return promulgated April 1941 but are listed in the October 1941 one (correct to 30th September). Presumably they were fitted during her late summer refit that year.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 5:07 am 
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Thanks Dick. That narrows it down. According to R.A. Burt's book she was refitted May-June 1941 in Norfolk Navy Yard in the U.S.A. and then again in August 1941 in Glasgow. So yes it would seem she gained the quadruple PomPoms during one of those refits, Glasgow seeming more likely.

Just goes to show how light their anti-aircraft armament was at the start of the Second World War. Four Four Inch Twin Mounts, two Octuple PomPoms and two Quadruple Vickers Machine Guns. And that was all. Maybe the Royal Marines would have had GPMGs that could have been improvised on tripods and used as well?

But still, all told, very light AA Armament. Handy for the modeller though, saves a lot of building.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 9:23 am 
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And narrowing it down further still maybe, 6 Sep 41:

https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_d ... page_2.htm


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 12:37 pm 
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Very good. Narrowing it down to one month is not bad!

I really like that camouflage scheme on Royal Sovereign. Simple yet bold.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:02 am 
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Hi all,

I have some questions regarding the striking early Admiralty Disruptive Camouflage Scheme worn by HMS Resolution in 1942 as seen here:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119498
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205016080

There is also black and white video footage here showing the early days of the Eastern Fleet including H.M.S. Resolution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBK4HQtFRao

I intend to model her in the future in this colour scheme and have the Profile Morskie H.M.S. Resolution book which gives a colour profile and calls up the following colour references:

• ‘White’
• MS4A
• B6
• MS3
• MS1
• ‘Black’
• 507A

The MS1, ‘Black’ and 507A are quite difficult to tell apart in the colour profile provided in the Profile Morskie Book. Well at least they are on my copy anyway. In particular the MS1 and ‘Black’. My interpretation of it is as per below:

• All the decks (both planked and steel areas) are called up as being 507A

• Starboard side: the large dark splotch from the armoured conning tower forward reaching aft as far as ‘X’ Turret barbette including the casemate guns called up as MS1

• Starboard side: the small dark splotch on the hull extending up almost to ‘B’ Turret Barbette is called up as MS1

• Starboard side: The long dark sliver on the hull between ‘A’ and ‘B’ Turret, the dark splotch on the hull below ‘A’ Turret’s barrels and the last remaining dark splotch forward of the others below the anchor capstan are called up as ‘Black’

• Port Side, all the darkest splotches are called up as ‘Black’ with no MS1 evident at all on this side of the ship


My questions are as follows:


1. Is there documentary evidence or consensus among ‘those in the know‘ for the colour references called up in the Profile Morskie plans for this scheme?

2. Related to above and to my attempted interpretation of the colour profile drawing, have I got the areas of MS1 and ‘black’ on the starboard side identified correctly? (Or if they are not indeed MS1 and Black have I the lighter and darker colours the correct way around? They do ‘look’ that way in photos but that means little due to the well documented difficulties in interpreting colours from black and white photos or film)

3. Is there documentary evidence for the areas of planked deck being painted Dark Grey 507A? As I gather Second World War British Battleships typically had their planked decks ‘stained’ or ‘dulled’ or ‘darkened’ rather than actually being painted over, unlike the US Navy.

As stated I would like to model H.M.S. Resolution in this scheme in the future and would be interested to hear any thoughts on it?

I cannot get Colourcoats Paints shipped to my country which is massively frustrating. Especially knowing they exist and knowing the effort that has gone into ensuring their accuracy.

Therefore I will have to make-do with Humbrol paints. However I would like to have the pattern as correct as possible relative to itself, if that makes sense?! Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:09 pm 
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Hi Mr Church,

I was very keen on a 1/200 scratchbuild of HMS Resolution but this camouflage scheme has put me off.

Knowing what they're usually like, I'd put money on Profile Morskie's camouflage suggestion being incorrect. I also expect there are too many colours listed.

I think it will be a real bear of a scheme to try to work through and it will require an awful lot more photographs than I currently have as well as some other clues such as contemporary paintings if any exist. I don't think Resolution is mentioned in any camouflage observation reports that are known of which could place at least one of the medium tones.

It will require a substantial exercise to make sense of it. I struggle to believe Profile Morskie could have done such a robust job on his own, particularly given that everything he believes he knows about RN colours incorporate all the features now known to be mistakes.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 4:11 pm 
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Thanks James for your detailed answer. That is why I was asking!

The only photos and video I have seen of her are the ones I linked in the first message. Plus this one as seen here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/86/a2611586.shtml . I am not sure is it an actual colour photo or a colourised one? The brown colour makes me suspicious. It would be interesting to see it in larger size or to see the full album?

Looking through her history again in R.A. Burt's book, she completed her refit in Philadelphia USA in September 1941. There is a photo of her there dated September 11th 1941 and she is still overall grey, presumably 507A Home Fleet Dark Grey.

She must have been camouflaged in Britain before sailing to join the Eastern Fleet in early 1942. She returned home in September 1943 and went into reserve after a refit at that time. So she wore her camouflage for less than two years. Virtually all of which was spent with the Eastern Fleet.

I doubt there were too many artists or folks with cameras around in East Africa or Addu Atoll in 1942-43? Unless they were Royal Navy? It would be nice to get to the bottom of it as it is a very striking camouflage scheme and would look great on a model.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 4:34 pm 
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Quite a few photos of Resolution in that scheme are on a website: https://www.hmsresolution.co.uk/ (black and white, of course, so may not help very much in answering the OP's questions).


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 5:17 pm 
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Thanks for that, I had somehow managed to miss that website.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 1:22 pm 
Mr Church,

I can answer your Q 3 easily. My late father served in the ship from the late 1930's to her period in Philadelphia. I once asked him about the planked deck. His answer was in one word "creosote." I am sure that you know what that is but if not please reply on the Forum. I can also confirm this: I built a 1:192 model of the ship circa Summer 1939 over a considerable number of years. Some way into construction, I was obliged to seek more information and gained contact with a gentleman who also served in her in 1940 during Operation "Menace." He kindly sent me two copies of photographs; one of which confirmed the creosote being applied to the quarter-deck in Gibraltar in 1940. I no longer have these, however, they may be within the "paperwork" that went with the model when I donated it to the Imperial War Museum.

The rest of this is a digression but you may find it useful. I once bought a copy of the Profile Morskie. I could not vouch for the camouflage scheme shown but the booklet was glaringly inaccurate in aspects of detail, which is a shame as it is otherwise a good effort.

Concerning that camouflage scheme and the paints involved though. There is a coloured diagram of the ship's port side 1941/42 scheme on Page 394 of Raven and Roberts's "British Battleship of World War 2:" note though that this does not appear complete. However, there is the possibility that the scheme on both sides may be in the 6 part work (with a supplement) that Alan Raven produced a number of years ago. I no longer have mine, I donated them to the Historic Photographs and Ships Plans Section (HP & SPS) of the National Maritime Museum (NMM). May I suggest that you send them and e-mail and ask them to look for you?

Final point: I have never used "Colourcoats Paints" but Section 3c of David Williams's "Naval Camouflage 1914 - 1945" gives details of the Humbrol equivalencies of the Admiralty's standardized camouflage colours of World War 2. You might be able to find a copy of this book but if not there is a simplified copy of the list held by the aforementioned HP & SPS of the NMM who should be able to send you a copy.

Best Wishes with the model.


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:54 am 
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Dear guest,

Many thanks for taking the time to reply. That is very interesting to hear about the deck being creosoted. I always associate creosote with timber railway sleepers and telegraph poles. Such a distinctive smell off it in summertime. It gives a certain bandwith for colours of the Resolution's deck. Likely similar to weathered timber railway sleepers. Silvery greyish brownish colour!

Very useful to know for definite that Resolution's decks were not painted certainly up to when she refitted at Philadelphia. Of course in theory they could have been painted subsequent to your late father (R.I.P.) leaving the ship, at the same time as the camouflage scheme was applied? As she was still overall grey upon leaving Philadelphia in September 1941. Painted decks now seem less likely I would think though.

I agree with you as regards some of the plan books. They can be very hit and miss as regards details. But they are useful for the basic overall shapes of the bridge decks etc. Especially when I have to scratchbuild all of these. When looking for details there is no substitute for good photos.

Anyway I appreciate all the additional information too. Some avenues potentially worth pursuing there. Thanks again for taking the time to reply and for providing such useful information.


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 8:07 am 
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Some good info there. I'm going to fold this into the general R class thread in the next day or two.

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 12:50 pm 
Mr Church,

You appear somewhat dubious about the appearance of the decks of HMS RESOLUTION after being painted up in the 1942 Scheme. I advise you to look at the photographs on the web-site advised in tjstoneman's post of May 23. A critical look at images showing items in which the camouflage scheme applied can be determined will reveal that the planked decks were not painted as the seams and joins can still be seen. This indicates that those decks remained stained.

Though wood-planked decks may well have been painted in the ships of some navies, the paint would have to have been applied with the wood bone dry for it to soak in and then dry. If applied to a damp wood deck it would have simply "lifted" and left an unholy mess. The beauty of using creosote is that it soaks in to even damp wood and would still have dried fairly rapidly, which means that the area could be used again quickly. That leaves the matter of the other decks and platforms.

I doubt if one will ever determine with precision what the others were covered with. However, R Baker's web-site once had a beautiful shot of the Shelter Deck looking aft from the control top clearly taken after the Philadelphia refit which shows strong evidence of the deck being painted a dark grey: this deck was not wood planked despite what I recall Profile Morskie shows. Other decks may have been similarly painted though not the bridge platforms, which are likely to have been covered with corticene: it would have been slightly "easier" on the feet.

Incidently, Mr Baker's web-site is a later version than that I recall some years ago but I have been unable to contact him to discuss that. Although some of the pictures that I can recall are no longer shown on it, it remains a useful tribute to the old ship. You might also like to know that he actually built a plastic model of the ship painted up in the 1942 scheme. I believe that it was based on Frog's "Royal Oak."


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 2:59 pm 
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Dear Guest,

I would not say dubious, no. As stated in my first post I am aware that the Royal Navy did not typically paint the planked areas of their battleship decks. All I was trying to say is that there remains a remote possibility that the planked decks were painted at the time the camouflage was applied in 1942?

As per your late father's evidence we now know without any doubt whatsoever that there was no deck paint up until Philadelphia in 1941. Of course all the circumstantial evidence points to continued creosoting into 1942 when the camouflage was applied. I'm just not sure we can absolutely categorically state beyond any doubt the decks were not painted in 1942 when the camouflage was applied? Though it does now seem rather unlikely that they were painted. Indeed I would much prefer to find out that the decks were stained as that looks far better on a model than a painted deck!

It is very difficult to tell such things from black and white photos. Hence my original question as to whether there was any documentary evidence of painted decks, as opposed to photographic evidence? For example, it is an indisputable fact that the USS Missouri had blue painted planked decks at the time of the Japanese surrender ceremony in September 1945. Yet in this preview photo here from Getty Images you can still see the joints in the timber planking and there is not much to say one way or the other whether they were painted or merely stained based on this one photo alone:
https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/allied-officers-crew-crowd-decks-of-the-american-battleship-news-photo/53370187?adppopup=true

The decks in that photo look darker than the light grey turret sides but lighter than the blast bags and recoil bands on the 16 inch guns. That is about all that can be said. And even at that there is potential for mishap due to different photo film being biased towards different colours etc. A great example is black and white photos of 1930s red white and blue Spanish Civil War Neutrality Markings on battleship gun turrets. They frequently look 'the other way around' to the way they really were.

Yes you are perfectly right that Profile Morskie show planked shelter decks and that this is incorrect. I have the Kagero plans for H.M.S. Royal Oak and these make the same error. As does every model kit I have ever seen of the R Class including a brand new resin one of Royal Oak in 1/700. I noticed this before and posted about it in the 'Calling all 'R Class fans' thread. This photo among others from the Imperial War Museum shows no planking thereby disproving the planking theory:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205135890 .

It is H.M.S. Revenge taken in 1940. There are other IWM photos from the First World War of H.M.S. Royal Oak that further reinforce this point. I scraped off the planking for my still work in progress 1/500 HMS Royal Oak as per photo here:
Attachment:
DSC_1087R.JPG
DSC_1087R.JPG [ 200.24 KiB | Viewed 595 times ]


Your point about the areas of corticene on the bridge deck is spot-on too.

Many thanks once again for your informed comments. I very much appreciate them. Indeed that is the strong point of a forum like this, to be able to get in touch with people and find out vital pieces of evidence such as this.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:25 am 
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Actually, Home Fleet Temporary Memorandum No 288 dated 20th August 1940 stated that decks for Cruisers and above were to be of a dark colour. For wooden decks the mixture was to be 6 parts Japan Black, 1 part turpentine and 6 parts Liquid Dryers.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 6:52 am 
Well, if no-one else will say it, I will: thank you 508medway and well done for digging that one up. I take my metaphorical hat off to you.

A medium such as a Temporary Memorandum is the only way that such an instruction would have been uttered and using such a measure would have been much cheaper than going to the expense of using a coloured paint. The mixture would have been easy to make up onboard: I believe that most large warships of the period carried a "painter" onboard; or at least a rating detailed to carry out such duties and possessing a much prized "blue card."

Alright everyone, can anyone define "Japan Black?"


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 12:26 pm 
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It's a bitumen (asphalt) based lacquer/ varnish, usually dissolved in naptha, turpentine or similar. It would usually be used on metal. It could be extended with linseed oil.

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 1:57 pm 
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508medway wrote:
Actually, Home Fleet Temporary Memorandum No 288 dated 20th August 1940 stated that decks for Cruisers and above were to be of a dark colour. For wooden decks the mixture was to be 6 parts Japan Black, 1 part turpentine and 6 parts Liquid Dryers.


Thanks for that 508medway, very interesting.

I presume the net result of that mix would have been a translucent black coating over the existing planked deck?


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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 6:24 am 
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Yes that will give a very dark wood stain. How thick it was slapped on and how thirsty the teak planking was would have some bearing on the final look.

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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