The Ship Model Forum

@BB62vet:
I do need that particular area on my barrels to be a slightly darkish color just like you see in the two original pics I used because I'm building and converting TAKOM's 1/72 scale USS Missouri 16" gun turret into the turret # 2 that was on the USS Iowa during the 1989 turret explosion. I'm trying to create a memorial build with my model.

EJM -
Understood. However, if you look closely at your own photos, you will see that there's a reddish/copper hue to the "slide" area of IOWA's barrels - more than the fine speckled black that appears to me to be the powder soot or residue. Perhaps you might try taping off that area of the barrels (or find something else similar in color to use as a test) and spraying the reddish-copper first and then from a distance, spray the dark silver/black mixture to see if you can get a fine powdery coating w/o totally masking out the undercoat of red/copper. At least, some waste sprue from the kit (if there is any!) might be worth testing out on to see the results.

Hope this helps,

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

As a photographer I will note that the tonal values of the photos of the Iowa explosion are overly contrasty, suggesting that a color transparency film such as Kodachrome 64 was used, low values drop out and are not displaying both tone and color with any veracity. My suspicion is that the correct color is more like Hank's photos, with the exception that lube may have been burned off or smoked by the explosion.

The type of lube undoubtedly has changed since WWII, As applied in Hank' photos it looks a bit like a cosmoline which I am familiar with from firearm preservation.

Always things to learn! Tom

Tom,

Cosmoline - that's the word I couldn't recall - thanks for mentioning it - Yes! that's what was used to coat the brass slide area of the barrels.

I recall going into one of the 5" upper handling rooms of a mothballed FLETCHER DD in San Diego in 1968. This was one of the units that had never seen service, simply towed from the builder's yard to the mothball fleet area south of 32nd St. Naval Station and parked there until scrapped in the 1970s. The interior brass parts of the loading mechanism were all bright brass coated with a heavy layer of cosmoline - everything was intact and ready to go - quite a sight to see pristine machinery w/o any paint or wear. This condition was true all over the areas of the ship that I could enter during daylight (sunshine) - there was no power anywhere.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Hank,

There weren't any FLETCHER's that "never saw any service", going straight to mothballs from the builder's yard. The last FLETCHER completed was in February 1945. How then, a few FLETCHER's were upgraded to the Anti-Kamikaze mod after being repaired from war damage or overhaul that completed the work so late that the destroyer went straight to mothballs. 100 FLETCHER's were recommissioned for the Korea War, leaving 50 that remained in mothballs (after 19 war losses and 6 CTL scrapping). Some of those 50 were transferred to other navies, but several never saw service again for the USN or another navy (16 Round-Bridge units and 15 Square-Bridge units) after WWII.

A few GEARINGS were mothballed incomplete at the end of the war, with plans to complete them at some future date. A couple were completed as DDE's, but most ended up scrapped.

Rick,
Your reply is probably correct (I'm certainly not disputing it!) - quite possibly the ship I was visiting was one of those that had been a late war completion as you mention. I wish I had thought at the time to have noted the hull number, etc. I do recall that it, along with 3 or 4 others all tied up together, these ships were devoid of any of the modifications that were done Korea era - all with pole masts. I took it that those ships had never seen commissioned service as that is the way they appeared at the time. There were, in adjacent piers, FLETCHER class DD's also mothballed that had seen post war service as they had the large, shaded hull nos. and post-war modifications were quite visible.

Thanks for the correction!

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Perhaps some old gunners mate knows if it was actually cosmolene that was used. I am familiar with the "stuff" as it was used to preserve small arms and requires considerable application of another "grease" (elbow) to remove as well as some solvent use. It's possible this is what was used, also possible that something with better lubricating qualities was used. It does have that yellow-brown quality typical of petroleum based products.

Cheers: Tom

The conning tower was broken down into 5 side plates. None of the seams on the plates matches the arc segments. I don't think they did this for manufacturing. In fact, nothing on the Iowas appears to have been done for ease of manufacturing.

Hello:

I've been thinking about fixing the hull shape issue on my 1/200 Missouri model. I've heard of some others doing this, but I haven't been able to find any notes or a build log that shows how they did it. The two methods I'm thinking of using are A) heat and push or B) Cut vertical slits and try to bend the strips to the right profile.

Cheers
Mike

Mike,
I modified the 1/200 Trumpeter hull for making my USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) model and have a build log on the Picture Post forum/Works in Progress, etc. - finished in 2019. My method was to fill the hull with Bondo and then grind out the hull using station lines and templates. Not an easy or usual process, but it accomplished the task fairly well.

I personally don't think either of your two methods would work and you would end up with a totally ruined hull - just my two centavos worth! There are a couple posted entries about others who have done this modification, you'll just have to spend time looking thru the build logs to find them. I believe Jason Channell did his hull by grinding off the areas of the hull and putting bulkheads in place that were then covered with thin styrene strips (basically, plank on bulkhead), and then covered with plastic filler and sanded smooth. He also has a build log on this.

Hope this helps,

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

[I tried to find Hank's build log, unsuccessfully but ran into someone else's.

Every time I look at that kit I see major things that appear to be off. I have been thinking about getting a 3D printer that might be able to produce a correction, where you cut off the [lower?] stern and glue on a replacement.

The turrets also look way off with the sides appearing to be vertical, rather than sloped. The rangefinder hoods have a continuous angle along their front and rear faces when the area near the base is perpendicular to the centerline. If there were a continuous angle, the casting would not have fit into the baseplate.

The location of the vents and the hatches is wrong.

I am probably sensitive because I just sent off to the printer a test run for my book on the armor for the purpose of addressing technical issues. The book has measured drawings of every armor plate, including all the turret hoods so those kit errors leap right out at me.

In the queue is a book on the hull structure so the striking errors in hull form also leap out at me.

While I am pontificating, here is something I did last week. Turret No. 1 on Iowa/New Jersey. Note that this is quite different than what you may have seen in some references.

attachment=0]ViewCapture20221018_160339.jpg[/attachment]

BigJim -

Re. the location of my original build log - I don't know either. I've just looked thru all the Picture Post/Works in Progress and Completed Models forums to no avail. I'm not wasting any more of MY time trying to find my original build log - and I have NO CLUE how or where it is filed after completion. Maybe one of the mods or admin will read this and respond.

Your turret barbette rendition is quite interesting, to say the least. Hadn't seen a view of it quite like that! And the shape - I won't comment except to say that I know you have documentation to stand behind your entry.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Here's Hank's build log: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=154697

_________________
De quoi s'agit-il?

To Hank:

Thank you for your response. I think I found your build log of the 1/200 New Jersey here:

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=154697

However, I didn't see a discussion of how the hull modification was made. There are some pictures on page 16 of the bow being widened, and on page 27 a picture of the completed hull and a comment that a lot of hull work had been done.

Assuming that your posts on the hull work are lost to the winds, can you describe (in as much detail as you can) what you did? Do you have pictures from back then of your work? I recall that you said that you used bondo inside the hull. Given the amount of plastic that would be ground away, I'm concerned about the structural strength of the hull, unless there is something to backup the filler such as fiberglass.

Cheers
Mike

Timmy C - thanks for locating my build - I'm guessing at how this was filed (by creation date, which I had forgotten!). Anyhow, I'll bookmark it for future reference!

Mike - I also can't find a discussion of how I did my hull in the build log either; why - I can't explain now, perhaps I did...don't recall now. I know I had started a mini-topic on that topic that I had planned to post and never did. Anyhow, a bit of history on others who also have modified the 1/200 Trumpeter hull:

Jason Channell - used a plank on bulkhead type method for internal supports with styrene strips as replacement for his hull after cuttting out a section of the original hull - covered with putty and sanded smooth. Here are a few photos I saved from his method:
His internal bulkheads added inside the hull:


And his finished hull:





One other member also did (what I would consider the BEST METHOD) a complete hull replacement of the last 19 inches of the hull - this was a 3D designed/printed replacement for the after part of the hull. He used a high-end 3D CAD program (Solidworks, I think but I could be wrong) to do the design and also created internal bulkheads within the hull for structural strength.

And, I did my hull totally different by filling the interior of the worst affected area of the hull (behind turret 3 back about 6-8 inches). I also rebuilt the forward lower hull to widen the bulb area which is also incorrect.

Bow area - I made section templates from the IOWA class body plan and then adhered them to cardboard. Here is a photo of them in place:

The templates allow you to see how much new material you'll need to add to get this area to the proper shape & thickness. This was after I had mark the hull w/magic marker to location the section lines:

I built up the forward section using styrene strips and putty and then sanded these down to shape. Not what I would term now a desirable method - due to my experimenting with liquid glue which didn't work well. If I were to do it over, I would use CA or styrene cement. Here is a shot of the forward hull with the station lines marked:

As for the hull stern modifications, I also made templates for that area, as well:

I marked off the hull where these templates would be located, and then knew how much of the hull would need to be ground down to the correct shape. Here are photos of the hull after the Bondo had hardened and I had ground off the excess hull plastic:

I didn't attempt to alter the shaft alleys, simply tried to get the hull shaped closer to what was the actual contour of the hull. The application of the Bondo was a small nightmare as I wasn't aware that a 2-3 inch thick blob of that stuff would generate heat, but it did. Luckily, overnight it had cooled and begun to harden; I left it for several days before attempting to work on it. I didn't make any photos of the interior of the hull filled with Bondo, why - I don't know, I just didn't.

If I were to recommend a method to use, it would be probably something along the lines of what Jason Channell used as his method was a lot more logical in some respects, and certainly a bit easier in the long run. A complete replacement of the last 19 inches of the hull would be the answer, but unless you know 3D solid modeling or someone who does (and is into ship hull design) then that option may be moot.

I hope this helps; this is a BIG undertaking for anyone to accomplish!

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

They are supports that extend down to the hold that transmit the force from the side of the turret.

There is a photograph in here

https://www.amazon.com/Visual-Battleshi ... 098998043X

It looks to me like kits have copied the Tamiya hull form and either blown it up or added plating and have preserved the original mistakes.

I was playing around with my 3D models. I wonder if this might be the approach for building a correct hull. Working at 1:192 scale, I imagine 0.04-inch styrene being laser cut. The blue is the half siding that runs along the bottom. I have 27 frames on a keel shown here at my infant state (about every 2-inches).

I imagine some longititudinals and stringers added for thickness and building assistance.

The frames are offset 0.04-inches for "planking." Two layers of 0.02-inch or one layer of 0.04"

I imagine a 3D printed bow, stern tubes, stern bolster, docking keel, and shaft bossing on the twin keels.

It could possibly be cut out of brass sheet as well.

I built my 1:192 Alaska using a somewhat similar method with success, however it's a waterline model and is attached to a base board. I also added rigidity by adding non expanding foam. However in general thin styrene lacks rigidity and plywood is a much more satisfactory material. We subject our models to types of forces that a real ship would never survive, just think of model wise how gentle of a kissing of two ships in a real collision causes severe damage.

I had considered how fun it would be to build a ship with an accurate interior, ini my case via 3 D printing. The bridge area of the ARL 12 USS Poseidon I built had proper bulkheads and some interior equipment in the navigators and radio rooms.

Such construction from styrene would be quite an innovation and it might or might not work. You have accumulated as much information as anyone, critical to implantation of such a project. Certainly a challenge, which in it's own way speaks well for such an attempted construction!

That's how progress is made! Good luck!

The material could easily be changed. I don't have the facilities to build such a monster, only to draw one out. Changing the thickness of the supports is a bit of a problem it it is time consuming. I had thought that such an animal could also be built by adding foam between the frames and covering with fiberglass cloth. The problem would be how to get the thickness right to mate with the bow and shaft bossing.

I have no facilities for building such an animal. I have the computers to design one. The great mystery for me is the shell and how to make allowances for that on the frames. Let's say the frames are laser cut out of plywood and the shell would be formed by wood strips. How much wood would there need to be? So how much would I need to offset the frames to accommodate the shell?

I have a book from NIP about building a large scale model of a RN battleship that is built plank on bulkhead. Yet the book leaves out the key subject of how much to offset the frames for the shell.

I asked in another forum for guidance and just got a run around. For me to do this kind of thing, I would need real guidance on how the shell should be created, how thick it would be, and how much I need to offset the frames.