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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:46 pm 
Great photo! Looks like the photocopier had a lot of work before him.


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 Post subject: Re: BGP Abbreviations
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:07 pm 
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bigjimslade wrote:
Other are labeled: "WEB" Does anyone know aht that means?


Are they just "WEB" or "WEB BHD"?

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:30 pm 
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BB63Missouri wrote:
I purchased a colour swatch from The Floating Drydock about 20 years ago of the WW2 USN colours.
The colours are from 1943-1945 and are known as Purple-Blues. Six colours are on the card:

5-P Pale Gray 5-L Light Gray
5-H Haze Gray 5-O Ocean Gray
5-N Navy Blue 20-B Deck Blue

5-N Navy Blue and 20-B Deck Blue are very dark.
I did some research and what I discovered was that purple paint was supplied in drums and white was added to make the different colours. I never discovered the ratio of the mix for each colour and I am certain that in the field the attitude would be "near enough is good enough". This would explain the blotched appearance of ships, as only the area needing repair would be painted.

I don't think this colour swatch is available any more.


FWIW, using FD's Camouflage 1, here are some of the purple-blue tinting medium (5-TM) to white (5-U) ratios for various colors. Deck Blue apparently used a different tinting medium for durability as pointed out elsewhere on this page.
September 1941: Haze Gray 5-H, 2 pints 5-TM to 40 pints 5-U; Ocean Gray 5-O, 5 pints 5-TM to 40 pints 5-U; Sea Blue 5-S,10 pints 5-TM to 40 pints 5-U; Deck Blue, 20 pints 20-TM to 40 pints 5-U. (I'm guessing that color-wise 20-TM was the same color as 5-TM, just a more wear resistant base.)
June 1942: Navy Blue 5-N, 15 pints 5-TM to 40 pints 5-U.
Just a sampling, but it shows the pattern. It is hard to believe, to my eyes, that 5-L, 5-P, and 5-H are all made with just the two colors 5-TM and 5-U, but it's true.
One thing I didn't like when I painted my first Tamiya BB-63 in 32/22D Dazzle was that the Tamiya paint mix using Tamiya paints as described in the kit instructions was totally lacking in any tinge of the purple-blue the original paint had. The Tamiya mix just ended up looking overall grayish. Yeah, I know there is still some discussion going on on this board about MO's colors when she left the East Coast and before the Dazzle was painted out, but I'm on the P-B side.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Are they just "WEB" or "WEB BHD"?



They are listed on the dwg. as "WEB" - my opinion is that they are just that - a steel plate between vertical bulkheads (if looking down on the plan of the ship), I found two of these on sh. 18 frame elevations. I also found a couple items labeled "NT WEB" on sh. 16 Frame 58 looking fwd. Finding none of these notations on the deck/level plans, I will state these are steel plates dividing vertical bulkheads (either fore/aft or athwarship), with or without oval openings cut into them.

The one individual who could answer this question in a heart beat is, sadly, now gone - Richard Landgraff - he worked at one time or another on all the IOWAs and was the steel "guru" at LBSYD.

hope this helps,

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Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: BGP Abbreviations
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:01 am 
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Tracy White wrote:
bigjimslade wrote:
Other are labeled: "WEB" Does anyone know aht that means?


Are they just "WEB" or "WEB BHD"?


Just "WEB".


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:03 am 
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g. shoda wrote:
Great photo! Looks like the photocopier had a lot of work before him.

Yep. Too bad they did not uFilm so that the material was readable.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:58 am 
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R.E. D. wrote
Quote:
Each Shipyard had a set of drawings for EVERY ship in the USN even if a particular ship was assigned to them as their Home Yard.]


I agree - great photo! Years ago, when Compton's & World Book encyclopedias were "the" reference source for almost everything, the 1955 edition of Compton's carried a comment that the design of the IOWA class ships required 75 TONS of blueprints - so you can see that the old fella in the photo probably had "job security" for life carrying out his tasks. Today's 3D models that now take center stage in the engineering design process STILL require 2D orthographic prints in order for buildings (and ships) to be constructed. Like most information generated by computers - garbage in/garbage out. And today there is NO drafting quality or standards as was the case in the past. I have full size (6' long) copies of the 1931 USS PENNSYLVANIA deck plans that are absolutely beautiful - the drafting quality is simply astonishing - an art that has almost completely disappeared in today's world of CAD.

Another reason to preserve these drawings from the past.

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:51 am 
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True, but lets not get too nostalgic. There was a time before the invention of the printing press that people (monks specifically) would transcribe texts by hand using calligraphy. While it was beautiful, it was horribly inefficient and made books something only for the precious few. Then along comes Guttenburg and all of that changed. While I lament drafting as a skill being lost (mostly), I have at my fingertips the ability to create this.

Attachment:
Adam Kitchen w Lighting 4 small.jpg
Adam Kitchen w Lighting 4 small.jpg [ 82.25 KiB | Viewed 1833 times ]


This is a kitchen I'm drawing for my son based on some sketches from his kitchen person. It was entirely done on my Apple MacBook Pro using SketchUp and it's rendering engine, Podium. This level of graphic capability was simply unimaginable 15 years ago. To make a interior, accurate perspective drawing took hours and hours and wouldn't look like this. I know. I had to do it in college. Frankly, I don't miss standing over a drawing board one bit. It's not that the computer does it better, it makes doing it possible at all. Notice, the computer even resolves reflections of this imaginary room on the window glass.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:36 pm 
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B2010,

Nice rendering, etc. but I'm talking mainly about the "art" of quality drafting work - the CAD drawings I produce 40 hrs/week on MicroStation do not have the artistic character of those old vellum drawings - and it isn't needed for the P&ID drawings I create for building a biotherapeutic fractionation facility or Process Chiller addition. But, something is lost when you don't put your own creative abilities into a drawing - and computers can't do it for you.

I agree that leaning over the drafting table in the '70s producing elec. flow sheets and logic diagrams for an anti-ballistic missile systems maintenance manual was hardly a "eureka" moment, but more something needed that paid the bills. I simply appreciate the drawings from the past that showed the Talents of that particular draftsman.

When I get my workshop built and fitted out, I will have my old drafting table/parallel bar/implements all in place even though next to it will be my desktop w/MicroStation v8i loaded for bear!!!

Getting back to the BGP plans - the 1931 draughts of PENNSYLVANIA were much more artistic in nature than the later 1940's era warship BGP plans we frequently talk about. So, even then things were becoming simplified to expedite the quantity needed over the quality expected.

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:45 am 
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I found a photograph from the interior of the New Jersey showing the "sand locker" just below the main deck at the bow. The only apparent access to this area is a "scuttle" in the main deck located on the port side and it appears to be just behind the very first frame on the ship.

My guess is it would be slightly aft and to the left of the bow chock; maybe 2' off the centerline. From the inside, it looks like a squeeze through opening.

Does anyone have a picture of this opening? The NJ does not allow you to go up to the bow. I have photos of the Wisconsin of this area but they seem to have missed this opening.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:28 pm 
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Here is a photo of the sand locker location.
The round hatch is the cover for the locker

Image


James


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Thanks much. That must be a tight squeeze.

I am also looking for some pictures of the bow chock from above where it intersects with the bulwark. That would have to be on the New Jersey or Missouri because the Iowa and Wisconsin have this area covered up.

I am curious about how the Jack staff matches up with this and the shape of the pipe from the top.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Does anyone know if the radar on the Mk57 Director Missouri carried in 1945 is ranging only unit, or does the director have the ability to acquire target without visual help and is thus a true blind fire system?

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:03 pm 
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chuck wrote:
Does anyone know if the radar on the Mk57 Director Missouri carried in 1945 is ranging only unit, or does the director have the ability to acquire target without visual help and is thus a true blind fire system?


This suggests it was not a primarily a blind fire system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_HUZSk8c2c

But it could do blind firing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 am 
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Possibly a silly question, but is there any consistency to the main turret top coating/colour on the modernised Iowas? I see pictures where they are hull colour, others dark grey, presumably anti-skid. Sometimes different on the same ship. What about the 5" mounts?

I'm also seeing a lot of variation in the extent to which the deck around No.3 turret and the helipad is planked (or not). Again, what's the rhyme and reason for this?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:44 am 
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Vlad wrote:
Quote:
Possibly a silly question, but is there any consistency to the main turret top coating/colour on the modernised Iowas? I see pictures where they are hull colour, others dark grey, presumably anti-skid. Sometimes different on the same ship. What about the 5" mounts?

I'm also seeing a lot of variation in the extent to which the deck around No.3 turret and the helipad is planked (or not). Again, what's the rhyme and reason for this?


The std. painting scheme for all USN ships is Deck Gray on horizontal surfaces, Hull Gray (or Haze Gray as we used to call it) on vertical surfaces. Now that all 4 IOWAs are museum ships it doesn't surprise me that the individual ships (and pictures of those ships) show variations in the paint shades, etc. I don't know whether or not the caretakers are required to buy official Navy paints or use "equivalents". Keep in mind some photos come from when the ships were mothballed and thus the paints were possibly faded and obviously in need of maintenance. The 5"/38 dual gun mounts follow the same pattern.

As for the main deck areas around Turret 3 - NEW JERSEY (being the 1st of the 4 ships to be refurbished in 1981-82) has a different deck plating pattern than the other 3 ships. This is the metal deck plating that was installed to accommodate the storage of additional helicopters and some say to cut down on deck maintenance. Personally, I don't think that (maintenance) was a legitimate or factual reason for the plating being installed. I am not sure that the other 3 ships have the same or also different plate patterns. You would need to compare overhead photos of each one to verify this. Variations may also be due to local shipyard changes necessitated by ???

Hope this helps,

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:35 am 
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All four Iowas have different patterns of non-skid on their fantails, it is an easy way to identify the ships once you know the patterns. Missouri had the most area covered, Wisconsin the least. New Jersey had a unique pattern of exposed teak surrounding Turret 3. The helo deck itself was slightly raised and had an inclined ramp on either side. On all four ships this was covered with non-skid, on Wisconsin it was the only area which was.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:17 am 
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Thanks guys, the fantail plating pattern makes sense now. :wave_1: there are a lot of mis-labelled pictures of the class and you can't see the hull number in all of them so it may have added to the confusion but I think I see the differences now.

For the turret tops, it definitely looks to me like sometimes they're deck grey and other times haze grey in service. Not talking about pictures of the ships as museums.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:58 am 
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One thing to keep in mind is the tops of Turrets 2 & 3 had UNREP rigs on them, Turret 1 did not. Non-skid was applied to 2 & 3 for safety around the UNREP gear. Non-skid areas can appear darker depending on the light. On Missouri the UNREP fittings were picked out in white, and the turret edges were outlined in white. Turret 1 had a large "63" applied in white only.

Check the tops of the 5" mounts for the specific ship and time period you are modeling, the extent of the deck grey varied.

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 Post subject: Hull Shape
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:17 pm 
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I was going back over the table of offsets data for the Iowa class. This data is rounded off to the nearest 1/16th of an inch. So, when you are dealing with constant slopes, the rounding gives steps in the data. I was doing an analysis to identify where things actually are straight. The plans indicate that the hull is sides are straight from FR54 to FR121. However, it is clear there are some other straight areas aft of FR121.

In doing this analysis, it appears that in the molded data, there is a slight knuckle in the hull between FR148 and FR186.

Attachment:
Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 6.41.06 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 6.41.06 PM.png [ 196.59 KiB | Viewed 1815 times ]


Attachment:
Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 6.41.29 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 6.41.29 PM.jpg [ 155.75 KiB | Viewed 1815 times ]


Here is a view of some TOO points at the center of the section. The knuckle is at the 5th point from the top.

Attachment:
Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 7.01.46 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 7.01.46 PM.png [ 20.6 KiB | Viewed 1815 times ]


You can smooth this out but that requires creating an S curve below the knuckle point.

I have not seen a knuckle like this on any model nor on any hull lines from plans from other sources. However, it looks like it is there in the data.

It appears from the data that the area 46' 5" above the baseline to the top of the sheer strake is straight until the aft perpendicular. In the zone of FR186 and aft, the hull below curves smoothly into this straight area. At FR148 and forward the hull below also joins smoothly (and as you move forward the straight area starts to do deeper).

I was wondering if anyone had notice this on one of the ships. I suspect it would be hard to see because the sheer strake goes below this knuckle for its entire length.


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