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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:08 pm 
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Started adding list of available Bismarck/Tirpitz kits, plus links to gallery entries, on page 1.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:47 pm 
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Haven't been concentrating on Bismarck posts for awhile and just decided to get back into it. I can't find John Asmussen's website, I believe it was Bismarck-class.dk, has it been taken down or had a name change?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:52 pm 
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So it would seem, but you can still access the archived version thanks to Internet Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20191121074 ... -class.dk/

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:07 am 
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Thank you, I'm glad it's still available.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:09 pm 
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Question on Aircraft Handling. The Arados appear to have been stored and moved on trolleys that ran on tracks. There are photos of the tracks just outside the forward hangers on Tirpitz, but none on Bismarck that I have seen. The wreck photos of Bismarck do show the trolley tracks inside the hanger. The following is my theory on how the aircraft were moved and it probably bears no similarity to reality.

I assume that when the plane was brought out of the hanger a section of track was laid out and installed on the deck, onto which the aircraft was pushed. I then assume the plane was lifted by one of the funnel cranes for the forward hanger and the main cranes for the aft hanger. It was lifted with the trolley (based on one of the Tirpitz photos showing the trolley on top of the catapult) and spun 90 degrees and lowered into the retractable mounts on deck. The launching carriage would then be moved underneath and attached to the plane after which the mounts were lowered, leaving the plane ready for launch. At some point the trolley was removed and put back into the hanger along with the tracks.

Am I anywhere close in these assumptions? Please correct me. Thanks in advance for the help.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:16 pm 
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Since the subject of painting out the swastikas has raised its head again, I would refer you to the following video on youtube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY This is a brief summary of the Battle of the Denmark Strait, mostly shot from Prinz Eugen. At 4;20 in the film, it shows her following Bismarck as they leave Norway. There is a clear shot of the anchor chains covered by a tarp hiding the deck marking. At 5:12 the film shows the foredeck with the anchor chains clearly on top of a painted deck and the tarp is gone.

Later on there is film of the stern showing a painted out marking, and at one point, two sailors rolling up what appears to be a large tarp. The swastika shows up again on the stern late in the film, but it is clear it is not all in sequence as there are cargo ships present in some shots.

It makes sense that as the ships left earlier than planned due to being spotted, if the swastikas hadn't been painted over, they were tarped, and painted as soon as practical. There is no way a tarp would have stayed on in the North Sea, much less the North Atlantic.

My opinion anyway, argument may commence at your discretion! LOL


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:10 pm 
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What’s the verdict on the best 1/700 Bismarck out of all the recent kits, with regards to accuracy/detail, as well as ease of building?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:12 pm 
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Flyhawk is so far beyond the other existing kits that any drawbacks it may have for "ease of building" (due to smaller, more detailed parts - though even Dragon's upgraded version probably requires more parts for some AA guns) are more than worth it.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:13 pm 
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PCB5656 wrote:
Since the subject of painting out the swastikas has raised its head again, I would refer you to the following video on youtube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY This is a brief summary of the Battle of the Denmark Strait, mostly shot from Prinz Eugen. At 4;20 in the film, it shows her following Bismarck as they leave Norway. There is a clear shot of the anchor chains covered by a tarp hiding the deck marking. At 5:12 the film shows the foredeck with the anchor chains clearly on top of a painted deck and the tarp is gone.

Later on there is film of the stern showing a painted out marking, and at one point, two sailors rolling up what appears to be a large tarp. The swastika shows up again on the stern late in the film, but it is clear it is not all in sequence as there are cargo ships present in some shots.

It makes sense that as the ships left earlier than planned due to being spotted, if the swastikas hadn't been painted over, they were tarped, and painted as soon as practical. There is no way a tarp would have stayed on in the North Sea, much less the North Atlantic.

My opinion anyway, argument may commence at your discretion! LOL


So on the 24th of May they would have been painted over with grey anyways regardless as we’ve assumed for years?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:21 pm 
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Timmy C wrote:
Flyhawk is so far beyond the other existing kits that any drawbacks it may have for "ease of building" (due to smaller, more detailed parts - though even Dragon's upgraded version probably requires more parts for some AA guns) are more than worth it.


Thanks. I’m primarily interested what’s easier to build. Small parts don’t worry me, as long as it’s not small parts that need to be built up from even smaller parts. I’m looking to build in 1/700 diorama presentation, so super fine detail isn’t important as the finished model will be viewed in terms of scale effect and scale distance from the observer. The overall “effect” of the finished piece as it looked in the real world to the human eyeballs is what I’m looking to capture.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:15 am 
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Thomas E. Johnson, I would assume (and this is just my opinion) that the painting would have been done shortly after leaving Norway, probably the evening of 21 May. The paint would have to be done before Bismarck hit open water, as the storms would have washed away any paint if it was done later. The paint seems to have washed away or dissolved on the bottom over the intervening years. My theory, is that when the Spitfire spotted Bismarck they hurried to leave port with some of the painting out of the Baltic scheme undone. Admiral Lutjens probably would have commanded both ships to cover the markings until they could be painted, which probably happened very soon. The Prinz Eugen definitely shows the tarp, then the paint and it is likely that Bismarck did the same, as both ships were under the same fleet commander.

If tarps had been left on the storms in the North Atlantic would have simply ripped them apart. If anyone has tried to tarp a load on a pickup or other style truck, you know what wind will do if it gets under the tarp. Add water over the bow, and the tarp is just history. Paint (again, this is just my theory) is the only solution to cover them. Being that the climate was very cold, the paint probably never hardened properly which could explain why the swastikas are so visible in the wreck photos.

A separate example of the paint not adhering to the ship are the stripes on the hull of Bismarck. If you take the side photo of Bismarck after the Denmark Strait shot from Prinz Eugen (best resolution you can find) and play with the lighting on it, you can see a ghostly image of the stripes on the hull. The paint obviously didn't have time to harden all the way through before being exposed to the waves.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:06 pm 
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PCB5656 wrote:
Question on Aircraft Handling. The Arados appear to have been stored and moved on trolleys that ran on tracks. There are photos of the tracks just outside the forward hangers on Tirpitz, but none on Bismarck that I have seen. The wreck photos of Bismarck do show the trolley tracks inside the hanger. The following is my theory on how the aircraft were moved and it probably bears no similarity to reality.

I assume that when the plane was brought out of the hanger a section of track was laid out and installed on the deck, onto which the aircraft was pushed. I then assume the plane was lifted by one of the funnel cranes for the forward hanger and the main cranes for the aft hanger. It was lifted with the trolley (based on one of the Tirpitz photos showing the trolley on top of the catapult) and spun 90 degrees and lowered into the retractable mounts on deck. The launching carriage would then be moved underneath and attached to the plane after which the mounts were lowered, leaving the plane ready for launch. At some point the trolley was removed and put back into the hanger along with the tracks.

Am I anywhere close in these assumptions? Please correct me. Thanks in advance for the help.


Just remembered this query - Stein Gildberg just posted a photo showing the temporary tracks today as part of his build: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=246667#p926645

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:04 pm 
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I am looking for information on the drive systems for the AA guns on the Bismarck. It is frequently printed that the Bismarck's guns were not able to track the Swordfish because they moved too slowly.

In my exploration of the New Jersey I have started looking at the motors driving guns. They are all electro-hydraulic and are designed to move the guns extremely slowly or fast. The electric motor runs at full speed all the time and drives a hydraulic pump. The pistons in the pump are engaged by a circular plate that most of the time is perpendicular to the drive axis. When the plate is perpendicular, the pistons do not move and the motor just idles at full speed. When the plate is rotated the pistons move up and down as they rotate. The plate can be rotated a tiny amount (causing the guns to creep) or up to 45 degrees for full speed. The speed response is linear with the angle.

This system was used for traverse and elevation on the 40mm, 5-inch, and 16-inch and on the rammers. The whole point of using such a system was to provide extremely fine control.

My references say that the Bismarck used hydraulic traverse driven by an electric motor—generally the same thing. So I am looking for documentation that describes the system and might explain why it was not able to track.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:52 pm 
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I am new to ship modeling, I am wanting to build a 1/350 Tirpitz and perhaps later one in 1/200..anyway, are there any books or reference material to be had on detailing the kits available--particulars like rigging, painting and other details? Any help would be appreciated very much.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:03 pm 
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MIR, I've merged your post into this thread, which should have plenty of material to help you get started, and then some.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:30 am 
bigjimslade,

Re: Post of 5.04pm 01 Jan

Was that the Swordfish aircraft or the gun mountings that moved too slowly? Whatever, you need to look for information on swash plate engines: it is out there (see page 23 of Peter Hodges' "The Big Gun: Battleship main armament 1860 - 1945"). That said, I have read somewhere that BISMARCK's A/A weapon crews were not properly worked up: wasn't "Rheinübung" somewhat rushed into execution?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:29 am 
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Guest wrote:
bigjimslade,

Re: Post of 5.04pm 01 Jan

Was that the Swordfish aircraft or the gun mountings that moved too slowly? Whatever, you need to look for information on swash plate engines: it is out there (see page 23 of Peter Hodges' "The Big Gun: Battleship main armament 1860 - 1945"). That said, I have read somewhere that BISMARCK's A/A weapon crews were not properly worked up: wasn't "Rheinübung" somewhat rushed into execution?


Many books describe the Swordfish as moving too slowly for the Bismarck's AA guns to track. That might be a falsehood to begin with. There are descriptions of the guns firing into the water ahead of the Swordfish to compensate.

American AA guns of the time could creep extremely slowly. They used Waterbury pumps (which use swatch plates). You just move the swash plate in the A-end a tiny bit and the guns creep. The the whole point of using hydraulic—electric power was that you could make extremely small adjustments in speed and get a predictable response in the output.

Either the "swordfish moved to slow for the guns" is nonsense or there must have been some difference in the German drive than what the Americans were using.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:36 pm 
The story that the AAA was not able to correctly track the slow moving Swordfish was based on the opinion of one of the attacking Swordfish pilot.

If there was a problem it is not because the guns could not track slowly enough. It was because the predictor could not handle the low speed. Since it was a mechanical devise and depended on proper gearing for each speed, it would be would have been economical to design it for an expected speed range.

Again, the story was based on the opinion of one of the pilots.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:49 pm 
bigjimslade,

Question: were BISMARCK's guns using radar or visual rangefinder ranging? It would also depend on which weapons were using which. The 20mm would have used eye-shooting and tracer. The medium range A/A (37mm)would have used at the least visual rangefinder ranging. The same would have applied to the "heavy" (105mm) A/A. According to a rather old reference however (Warship Profile 18: KM Bismarck/Battleship), the forward and after groups were of two different model mountings and "there were minor differences in the data transfer and remote control systems, so that in BS (BISMARCK) certain difficulties arose in the co-ordination of several mountings as one battery." It would also appear that BISMARCK lacked her two after A/A control facilities and their associated computer on sailing.

Regarding the matter of the Swordfish being too slow to track, the problem may have been due to an inability to fuze (time mechanical) the projectiles correctly due to the speed of the aircraft. It must also be appreciated that the Swordfish must have been d****d difficult to "splash" unless one obtained a direct hit on either the engine or the pilot: the rest of it can, perhaps rather too simply as air held together by the frame-work and canvas, hence "Stringbag! "


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:00 am 
DougC,

Re: Your last post.

Thank you, your post got in while I was still "drafting."

Information about opinion of one pilot is noted. I can only agree with your second paragraph.


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