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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:10 pm 
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My apologies to everyone for failing to include a copy of the 1939 docking report…or rather, copies of the two 1939 reports. One covers a docking at the end of 1938 (the report was dated January 1939) and the second covers her big refit in Pompey in September 1939. As you’ll see, there is no mention of underside colour.

Attachment:
A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg
A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg [ 56.39 KiB | Viewed 1476 times ]

and
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E92DB522-E469-49DC-A110-46201D997327.jpeg
E92DB522-E469-49DC-A110-46201D997327.jpeg [ 54.93 KiB | Viewed 1476 times ]


I’ve found no such report for 1941 yet, but we know for a fact she was drydocked at Rosyth and almost certainly had her bottom repainted.

So, what does this mean for Hood’s underside during war time? It means we don’t really know, 100%, what colour she was under the water. If I had to make an educated guess however, I would lean towards gray (maybe even black). It’s possible that the reason the reports don’t mention colours is because they retained the same colours. We’ve also seen anecdotal information that points to dark grey or black. Lastly, we have observations of the wreck. More on each below:

Anecdotal Info- In ADM 116/4351, some PofW men described Hood’s bottom as being black...some describe the bottom being painted black whereas others describe hull sections looking black (likely due to battle damage). Of course, due to conditions, etc., they could’ve also been seeing dark grey and battle damage. In another anecdotal account, we were also once contacted by a chap, with a model of Hood that had a black bottom (note: I edited this underlined section to be more clear...my original wording was not quite correct and a bit confusing). He mentioned that an old fellow who used to be a dockhand told him that it was the first time he had seen a model have the correct color bottom (supposedly he had painted Hood’s bottom black during the war).

We didn’t place a lot of faith in these reports as there was not much to back them up really, and earlier experts had been telling us she was red down below. Of course, we also believed expert opinion that she was medium grey above the water...which is now known to be incorrect. In short we’re only human and we do make mistakes.

Wreck- The stern is the best preserved section of Hood. It has intact wood decking, glass scuttles, degaussing cable, and lots of paint. It’s somewhat vertical position has made it difficult for the tides to deposit a lot of sediment (unlike other sections of the ship). In the footage/photos I have seen of the underside, there is no red (other than rust of course)… It’s dark and it’s highly suggestive of dark gray or even black. Admittedly, it’s hard to tell because of the lighting conditions and distance...But I suspect red anti-fouling which had been recently applied, would be readily visible. Here’s an unretouched collage (note: The ones in the wreck page(s) on the Hood website have been brightened/filtered to remove some of the blue/green water effect…but not the versions seen here).
Attachment:
7468E863-8157-440F-851D-6B5AB73AEBDF.jpeg
7468E863-8157-440F-851D-6B5AB73AEBDF.jpeg [ 65.96 KiB | Viewed 1474 times ]

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Last edited by FW_Allen on Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:58 pm 
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AMAZING footage! Hood with all her 5.5's....Iron Duke with her proto 5.25/4.5 on Y barbette......an Amphion class at about 0:45? I couldn't see if she had single or twin 4-inchers


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:07 pm 
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At this point we’ve already seen enough photos to know that corticine was definitely on Hood’s forward boat deck, but now we have it in writing...it’s in ADM 136/13, Vol 4: It’s a form D101 from 1938 and it mentions that, among other things, corticine on the boat deck was renewed. So, we already knew it, but it’s nice to see it in contemporary official documentation.

So folks, no dark grey on the forward deck...bust out the brown paint.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:13 am 
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Excellent find!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:03 am 
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FW_Allen wrote:
My apologies to everyone for failing to include a copy of the 1939 docking report…or rather, copies of the two 1939 reports. One covers a docking at the end of 1938 (the report was dated January 1939) and the second covers her big refit in Pompey in September 1939. As you’ll see, there is no mention of underside colour.

Attachment:
The attachment A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg is no longer available

and
Attachment:
The attachment A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg is no longer available


I’ve found no such report for 1941 yet, but we know for a fact she was drydocked at Rosyth and almost certainly had her bottom repainted.

So, what does this mean for Hood’s underside during war time? It means we don’t really know, 100%, what colour she was under the water. If I had to make an educated guess however, I would lean towards gray (maybe even black). It’s possible that the reason the reports don’t mention colours is because they retained the same colours. We’ve also seen anecdotal information that points to dark grey or black. Lastly, we have observations of the wreck. More on each below:

Anecdotal Info- In ADM 116/4351, some PofW men described Hood’s bottom as being black...some describe the bottom being painted black whereas others describe hull sections looking black (likely due to battle damage). Of course, due to conditions, etc., they could’ve also been seeing dark grey and battle damage. In another anecdotal account, we were also once contacted by a chap, with a model of Hood that had a dark grey or black bottom (I don’t remember which). He mentioned that an old fellow who used to be a dockhand told him that it was the first time he had seen a model have the correct color bottom (supposedly he had painted Hood’s bottom black or gray during the war).

We didn’t place a lot of faith in these reports as there was not much to back them up really, and earlier experts had been telling us she was red down below. Of course, we also believed expert opinion that she was medium grey...in short we’re only human and we do make mistakes.

Wreck- The stern is the best preserved section of Hood. It has intact wood decking, glass scuttles, degaussing cable, and lots of paint. It’s somewhat vertical position has made it difficult for the tides to deposit a lot of sediment (unlike other sections of the ship). In the footage/photos I have seen of the underside, there is no red (other than rust of course)… It’s dark and it’s highly suggestive of dark gray or even black. Admittedly, it’s hard to tell because of the lighting conditions and distance...But I suspect red anti-fouling which had been recently applied, would be readily visible. Here’s an unretouched collage (note: The ones in the wreck page(s) on the Hood website have been brightened/filtered to remove some of the blue/green water effect…but not the versions seen here).
Attachment:
The attachment A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg is no longer available


Just to double check couple of points regarding the bottom.

1) Was Hood unique among British capital ships of the era with black or grey bottom? Or was that also on other capital ships like KGV, Rodney etc and we need to start adjusting ALL british capital ships in early 40s late 30s?

2) Isnt the usual aging process of red antifouling paint and its composition lead to a grey color over long time exposure under water anyway? So how can we use sunk Hood that spent so much time under water as an indicator on red paint that tends to go grey over time? You see what Im saying? ... is Bismarck all "red" under water? Typically the rust forms most on areas that burned I understand so thats your red or rust confusion.

3) Based on this picture I would caution against full black lower hull. A grey one is more reasonable, I think. See contrast between boot topping and lower hull below on a picture last taken of Hood... From Hood association page.

4) I am super tempted to repaint my Hood model now... anyone has 1/700 RN plimsoll markings? :heh:


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Hood - not black bottom - grey.jpg
Hood - not black bottom - grey.jpg [ 158.96 KiB | Viewed 1400 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:27 am 
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At this point we’ve already seen enough photos to know that corticine was definitely on Hood’s forward boat deck


All non wood areas of whole deck? From around bridge structure up to boats area?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:28 am 
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Yes, either wood, corticene or semtex. Dave Weldon pointed out that corticine was present on the boat deck :thanks:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:57 am 
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pascalemod wrote:

1) Was Hood unique among British capital ships of the era with black or grey bottom? Or was that also on other capital ships like KGV, Rodney etc and we need to start adjusting ALL british capital ships in early 40s late 30s?



Based on the evidence I have from the museums and archives:

a. Was Hood unique: probably not.

b. Do we need to adjust all British capital ships: I would say no. Some appear to have been red (at least at some points in time) eg KGV, DoY & Nelson.

I'm going to write a little article on this issue based on what info I have and Jamie has kindly agreed to host it on his Sovereign Hobbies website. But as I said back in my original post on this matter on 4th Nov viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4702&start=700#p920109, to know whether it was grey, black, or red on any particular ship at any particular time you would need to look at the D.495 forms for each individual ship.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:41 am 
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dick wrote:
pascalemod wrote:

1) Was Hood unique among British capital ships of the era with black or grey bottom? Or was that also on other capital ships like KGV, Rodney etc and we need to start adjusting ALL british capital ships in early 40s late 30s?



Based on the evidence I have from the museums and archives:

a. Was Hood unique: probably not.

b. Do we need to adjust all British capital ships: I would say no. Some appear to have been red (at least at some points in time) eg KGV, DoY & Nelson.

I'm going to write a little article on this issue based on what info I have and Jamie has kindly agreed to host it on his Sovereign Hobbies website. But as I said back in my original post on this matter on 4th Nov viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4702&start=700#p920109, to know whether it was grey, black, or red on any particular ship at any particular time you would need to look at the D.495 forms for each individual ship.


Looking forward to that very much, thank you for taking your time and doing this for all of us. :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:32 pm 
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Would anyone be able to help me out with a list of the different types and amounts of boats and launches carried by Hood as sunk? Looking to replace the horrendous lumps of plastic in the Trump 1/350 kit with 3D printed parts from micromaster but not sure what is meant to represent what. Thanks in advance efor any help with this. Ta

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:39 pm 
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We already knew this, but again, it’s good to see it “in writing” in Hood’s books: painting of external propeller shafts is confirmed. In some 1920s reports they painted it with red lead and then an unspecified colour of antifouling coating (P&B). Again, something already known, but nice to verify.

I also saw an early 1920s reference to one of her propellers being painted with “gold size,” whatever that was/is. Can anyone explain?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:48 pm 
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FW_Allen wrote:
I also saw an early 1920s reference to one of her propellers being painted with “gold size,” whatever that was/is. Can anyone explain?

Google turned this up: http://www.gold-vault.com/gold_size_or_adhesive.html

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A gold size is an adhesive which is used to make the gold metal leaf adhere to the desired area to be gilded. There are sizes made from water and gelatine and various oil varnishes. I use a shellac gilding size as it is cheap & easy to make up, also this shellac size is used to give a sealing coat to the work as it imparts a pleasing colour.


Presumably they weren't actually going to put gold metal leaf on the propellers, so this "size" might have been used in the latter capacity as a top sealing coat.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:46 pm 
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pascalemod wrote:
2) Isnt the usual aging process of red antifouling paint and its composition lead to a grey color over long time exposure under water anyway? So how can we use sunk Hood that spent so much time under water as an indicator on red paint that tends to go grey over time? You see what Im saying? ... is Bismarck all "red" under water? Typically the rust forms most on areas that burned I understand so thats your red or rust confusion.

3) Based on this picture I would caution against full black lower hull. A grey one is more reasonable, I think. See contrast between boot topping and lower hull below on a picture last taken of Hood... From Hood association page.


Hood’s bottom was painted only 3 to 5 months prior to her loss. Her topside was painted during the same month of her loss. We’d expect some loss and fading but not so much as to be unrecognizable. Of all the recognizable segments of Hood, the stern is by far the best preserved. The paint is in great condition...if red were there, I suspect we’d see it.

Bismarck? Yes, I know how rust corresponds to fire damage. As for her bottom, I recall that her bottom “red” is easily seen in a some places and on some detached sections of the bottom. Faded, yes for the most part, but it still stands out. Of course, we could get closer to Bismarck than we could Hood...and Bismarck is in far better condition.

I agree that slate grey is more likely than black. Whatever colour it was, it doesn’t seem to have been standard red (not after 1936 anyway).

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:53 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Yes, either wood, corticene or semtex. Dave Weldon pointed out that corticine was present on the boat deck :thanks:

Yes he did! For folks who don’t know, he’s a long time Hood researcher who has amassed an amazing amount of knowledge/information. Indeed, it was also Dave who originally provided the Hood Association with the painting instructions that we incorporated into our website. We have modified them quite a bit since then, but we could have never gotten the ball rolling without his help. So, when he makes an observation (such as Hood having corticine on her forward shelter deck) we listen!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:56 pm 
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Timmy C wrote:

Presumably they weren't actually going to put gold metal leaf on the propellers, so this "size" might have been used in the latter capacity as a top sealing coat.


That makes sense to me Timmy! Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:11 am 
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FW_Allen wrote:

I agree that slate grey is more likely than black. Whatever colour it was, it doesn’t seem to have been standard red (not after 1936 anyway).


Frank,

Whilst this might seem pedantic, experience digging into RN documentation from the time has taught me that things were normally worded a certain way for good reason. Often this reason is difficult for us to fathom up to a century later but from custom and practice it would have been clear to them back then.

For obvious reasons, The Rate Book of Naval Stores described things fairly deliberately in its lists.
Attachment:
Peacock and Buchan's.JPG
Peacock and Buchan's.JPG [ 87.3 KiB | Viewed 1687 times ]


That a distinction is made in the Rate Book between the "Slate" (note not slate grey) colour of Peacock and Buchan's second coat protective anti-corrosion paint and the "Grey" colour of their final/outer coat anti-fouling paint says to me that they were different. Therefore in the case of the final/outer 'anti fouling' coat, if using Peacock & Buchan's paint, Hood's bottom would have been "grey" not "slate grey" in your parlance.

This begs an obvious question! We would be dealing with civilian paint colours not any of the AP507 shades. Back then there was not the infinite range of civilian paint colours we are used to today. The colour "Slate" was a well understood concept and existed as a standard colour in the BS381C range (1941 measured RF 12.8%):
Attachment:
BS381C No 34 Slate.jpg
BS381C No 34 Slate.jpg [ 76.43 KiB | Viewed 1687 times ]

But some deeper digging is perhaps needed re Peacock & Buchan's "grey"? Are there any photos of Hood in dry dock (ideally 1936-41) showing her bottom? We need to assess the tone of this grey.

Best wishes,

Richard


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:39 am 
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Suddenly this image of Missouri and antifouling grey does not look bizzare to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:49 am 
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2 x 16 ft dinghy (most sources have 1, pics suggest 2)
1 x 16 ft fast motor boat
3 x 25 ft fast motor boat
2 x 27 ft whaler
1 x 30 ft gig
2 x 32 ft motorized cutter
3 x 35 ft fast motor boat (1 admiral's barge version, rare)
1 x 42 ft motorized barge
1 x 45 ft motorized barge


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:56 pm 
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Thanks for that. After having a good look at the parts and the micromaster boats thats pretty much the list I came up with although I wasn't sure what that 3rd 35ft fast motor boat was (thought it might be a 25ft motor cutter). I didn't see the 30ft gig or 16ft fast motor boat though. Where would they have been stored?

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Last edited by Ady on Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:31 pm 
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dick wrote:
But some deeper digging is perhaps needed re Peacock & Buchan's "grey"? Are there any photos of Hood in dry dock (ideally 1936-41) showing her bottom? We need to assess the tone of this grey.


Excellent info Richard. Yes, it would be good to know what P&B’s grey looked like.

Here is a photo from ‘37/38: http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models/tips/ap507c6.jpg
The left hand image is more applicable in this case. We’re not sure, however if this is before or after scraping/cleaning in preparation for re-coating. The right hand image, on the other hand, appears to shows the topside being coated with red lead and presumably the bottom having its protective undercoating applied (I labeled the photo to show where the final colours should go).

Just curious, but are there similar codes associated with other P&B colors? They made more than grey right? We also need to see if we can determine Hood’s pre 1936 antifouling colours.

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