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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:24 am 
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Pete,

Fine, however, you should note that the coloured images attached to EJF's post of 11.16 am 16 Jan show the twin 4 inch mounting after two pieces of equipment were removed from them at around the early 1960's. At least that was when they were removed from the mounting in the ship I was serving in.

81542


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:42 am 
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Last edited by EJFoeth on Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:14 am 
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Thanks guys

I wasn't going to follow the equipment fitted in the colour photos, I realise that technology changes rapidly and the colour photos were likely to have suttle differences. I won't paint the sights etc as polished brass either, I'll use a lot duller finish and less of it too. The breech I'll follow though. And perhaps the handles too.

Thanks again chaps

Pete


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:01 am 
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good day all

I was looking on the association website for an official list of Hood's boats when sunk. I have searched through the AOTS but that's not fully clear as to what was actually on her when sunk.

Can anyone help please, I have looked through EJ's excellent blog but can't find a list for Hood?

Pete


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:18 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:31 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
2 16ft dinghy's
1 16ft FMB
3 25ft FMB
2 27ft whaler
1 30ft gig
2 32ft motorized cutter
3 35ft FMB
1 42ft motor launch
1 45ft motor launch



That's confused me a little EJ, when looking at drawings for 1941 I can only see 13 positions including the 2 which sit on other boats. looking at your list I can't see where two of the 25ft FMB go and 1 16ft sailing dingy? The drawings in AOTS seem to conflict with written info as to when boats were changed. I did note a photo on the association site that claims to be late 1940 early 41 which seems to show a small motorboat on the outboard starboard side between the forward pompom and forward 4" mount? Is this the 16ft FMB and if so were the 2 16ft dingy's then placed one either side of the radio shack?
If so this still leaves the 2 extra 25 FMB, the way I saw things was 1 fMB on the starboard near the 16ft dingy and the two 25ft cutters on the other side, one near the other 16ft dingy and one outboard? I can't see where two more 25ft FMB would be placed?

As you can see I'm a little confused with what's what and why I asked the question.

Regards

Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:09 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:14 am 
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EJFoeth wrote:
One gig and one cutter are placed on top of a cutter and a mtoor launch, respectively (either the 42 or 45 ft one, don't have my notes available here). There are 2 25FMB's port of the funnels near the fwd pompomsn , and 1 25ft and 1 16 ft FMB on the starboard side. Two 16ft dinghy's are in cradles on the superstructure between the funnels. This image from the Hood website shows the starboard layout well:

Image

IMO, there were 3 16ft boats, one skimming dish and 2 dinghy's.



Hi EJ, thanks for bearing with me. Yes, that's the photo that I was referring to, in that I can see the 16ft FMB (although I do note that the AOTS states that this boat was moved to one of the cradles in 1941), 25ft FMB and the 16ft dingy in the cradle. There is a good photo of the port side in Bruce Taylor's book 'Battlecruiser HMS Hood where you can see the other cradled 16ft dingy and the two other 25ft motorboats.

I know where I was going wrong now, I was getting the 32ft motor cutters mixed up with 25ft motor cutters which of course there aren't any, all clear now... I think...:)

Kind regards

Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:04 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:25 am 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Quote:
(although I do note that the AOTS states that this boat was moved to one of the cradles in 1941),


The image above is dated April 1941 and I do not see hints of a skimming dish on the portside either so I'm going to ignore that for now :smallsmile:



My thoughts too EJ..:)

Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:03 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:24 pm 
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That's interesting, the 50' steam pinnace of my favourite too, many years ago I scratchbuilt one in 1/150 scale. I've seen a steam pinnace afloat at Portsmouth although can't recall the actual type, IIRC it had a small cannon, perhaps a 3 pdr saluting gun fitted on its forecastle.

I'm not convinced that she had a pinnace when sunk, I've just had a closer look at the various photos of her in 41 including the last photo of her and I can't see any sign of a chimney which should be visible, even in long distance images. Similar earlier photos the chimney can be seen.

It would be great though if she did have a steam boat...:)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:22 am 
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Last edited by EJFoeth on Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:36 am 
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Greenglade,

With reference to the list of boat's carried by HMS HOOD as provided by EJF in his post of 15 February. The "Ensign Special" written by Maurice Northcott and published by Bivouac Books in 1975 has a list of the boats carried by the ship throughout her life. This information together with the remainder provided by Mr Northcott can only have been obtained from the Ship's Cover, which is held by the National Maritime Museum; so comprehensive is that which is printed. Below is a list of the boats reported as being carried from March 1941 until the ship's loss. Please note that like all things in the Royal Navy, it could have been changed and not been noted in the Ship's Cover but unless photographic evidence indicates otherwise, it is likely to be as good as it gets.

45ft motor launch - 1 Note: there is no indication as to whether this was of the "heavy" or later "light" type.
42ft motor launch - 1
35ft Admiral's barge - 1 Note: EJF has been trying to find a picture of this boat but as far as I can tell, so far, without success.
35ft fast motor boat - 2
32ft cutter - 2 Note: these were pulling/sailing boats, they had no motor.
30ft gig - 1 Note: pulling/sailing boat.
27ft whaler - 2 Note: pulling/sailing boat.
25ft motor boat - 2
16ft skiff dinghy - 1 Note: pulling/sailing boat.
16ft motor dinghy - 1 Note: also known as the "skimmer" or "skimming dish."

It may be of interest to you to note that "Northcott" has an undated fold out plan in it showing the ship at about the time of her loss. Unfortunately, I cannot completely reconcile it with the above list. It appears to show 2 16ft skiff dinghies and no 16ft motor dinghy. However, if you take away the port 16ft skiff dinghy and add a 16ft motor dinghy to the starboard side, it would be about right.

Concerning the differences between the 42ft and 45ft motor launches. Certainly the 45ft had two "rubbers" (not rubbing strakes, please) but I am not sure about the 42ft boat. I am not completely sure about the differences between the "heavy" and "light" type 45ft motor launches as they both had two "rubbers," however, the "heavy" type appears to have had the "rubbers" reinforced with coir rope. The "rubbers" of the "light" type were wood. The other main differences, to my knowledge, were in the steering arrangements. The "heavy" had a wooden tiller: the "light" was steered by means of a "Kitchen" type rudder.

I hope that you might find that this will improve the situation.

81542


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:11 am 
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I give up, I'm done with this thread.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:36 am 
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To further complicate things, did (or does) the RN ever land any of the ship's boats when they went out with the expectation of an action? :smallsmile:
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:00 pm 
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Ej, please don't leave this thread, I value your input greatly

81542

thanks for the list... it's a difficult thing to confirm. Regarding the Admirals Barge, from what I understand it should have been there, I read something about the barge being present when the Admiral was aboard and that when not for this era it would have been replaced with a 35ft FMB.
The mix-up over 16ft sailing dingy's/FMB seems to be shared among many sources....John Roberts clearly shows a 16ft motor dingy on the outboard starboard side between the forward pompom and forward 4" mount. This is confirmed by the photo that EJ kindly shared on the previous page. There is also another photo in Bruce Taylor's book showing the port side which has a 16ft sailing dingy in the cradle, I believe both photos are 1941, how close to her sinking I'm not sure?

I still need to understand the boats though, they aren't clear in my head yet but then I haven't devoted enough time to this yet. It's only become more pressing now as I plan to use the fabulous 3D printed boats by Micromaster and wish to place the order when they reopen end of this month. I'm not worried if I get some of the boats wrong, I can always get the proper ones later, it will be some time yet before I am fitting the ship's boats.

EJ's blog on ships boats is a god send for details about each boat. My biggest stumbling block just now is working out which boats are paired, I know (or think I know) some details but am unsure as to which boat was on the bottom of the rear pair. The drawings seem to suggest a large boat similar in size to the 42 and 45ft boats but none of the lists show anything that large. I'm guessing that one of the 32 cutters could be one of the upper boat pairs with the 30 gig being the other. I say this as it looks like the 3 25ft FMB were placed on either side of the funnels (1 starboard and 2 port) but some drawings show differently?

As you can see I'm still very confused...:)

cheers

Pete


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:25 pm 
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EJF,

I regret pouring cold water on anything that you have written over the time you have spent describing and researching HMS HOOD on this site but I consider "Northcott" authoritative. Please stay with it!

Drasticplastic,

I can only give details about one ship of the Royal Navy that I have researched deeply for a model. That was the battleship HMS RESOLUTION as she appeared in mid 1939. That ship sent inshore a number of her unwanted small boats around the time that the Royal Navy was ordered to mobilise. Otherwise, I am not aware that ships of the Royal Navy sent inshore boats on going to sea in expectation of an action during either WW1 or WW2. The Imperial German Navy is stated to have done so but photographs show that SEYDLITZ and DERFFLINGER still had one, or two in the latter case, on return from Jutland. Sorry, I am airing my knowledge there as you did not ask.

Concerning the two "hot" conflicts that the Royal Navy got involved in post WW2 i.e. Korea and Operation CORPORATE, prior to Iraq, ships seem to have kept their full establishment of boats onboard but may, in some cases, have sent small, un-needed boats i.e. recreational dinghies, inshore only to recover them at a later time.

81542


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:27 pm 
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Pete,

Thanks for your last post, I will try to help out within the next couple of days.

81542


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:20 am 
Greenglade,

Re: Your last Post

I think that EJF's threat to "leave" was an ironic remark.

Concerning your first paragraph: it is your privilege to ignore the list that I provided if you wish. The one way to check might be to contact the National Maritime Museum (NMM) and ask for the information contained in the Ship's Cover. However, as the great authority on British warship design, the late DK Brown RCNC, said (approximately) "They may be the truth but not the complete truth." With reference to admirals' barges: I've always understood that when a ship reverts to being a "private ship," the barge is always disembarked. It is debatable whether or not it was replaced by another boat.

As far as I am concerned, the only uncertainty here is whether or not the second 16ft skiff dinghy had been landed. The information in "Northcott" indicates that it was but an undated photograph indicates that it might not have been. I agree that there is a photograph of the port side of the Shelter Deck showing a 16ft skiff dinghy on that side: my example is in the Warship "Profile" (No 19) on the ship but it is undated. This is the whole problem: a lack of date verification. If it were me, I'd ask the NMM for the information out of the Ship's Cover and have done with it.

Re: Your second paragraph. I sympathise with you, however, it is even worse when researching and building from "scratch." I have become to believe over time that the largest percentage of finding what you want is easy, the second part is more difficult, the penultimate 2½ per cent is damn difficult and almost not worth bothering to find and the last 2½ per cent is impossible and will never be found. For what my opinion is worth: go on the best information you can and move on. You may be able to bore for your country on your chosen model and become the only expert on the prototype in existence and people will "coo" briefly on seeing it but then they and the rest of the world will forget it and move on.

Finally: I agree that EJF's blog is good (I have contributed to the subject on this site) but it is nowhere near the complete answer to the matter. No one has yet written the definitive book on the matter and Seaforth Books will bite the hand off the first author who submits a manuscript but no-one has done it yet. That doesn't help you to solve the matter of which boats had smaller boats "nested" inside them. For what my last piece of advice is worth though, according to the undated fold-out plan (unattributed but probably drawn by Alan Raven) in "Northcott," the 32ft cutter crutched down on the starboard side of the main mast has the 30ft gig "nested" inside it. The second 32ft cutter was "nested" inside the 45ft motor launch which was crutched down abaft the after funnel to port of the centre or middle line but note that boats could be moved around!! The "Northcott" drawing does contain a doubt though: it includes the port 16ft skiff dinghy but omits the 16ft motor dinghy.

I will leave it there!! Best wishes with your quest.

81542

PS I can't find any mention of the balsa raft anywhere in the list in "Northcott" nor in the two drawings that it contains. I'm sure that the ship would have carried one.


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