The Ship Model Forum

Hi EJ - so the boss is letting you do this? Brilliant! I eagerly await your findings!

_________________
James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151

Hi All,

Hi Evert Jan,

Yes an excellent couple of videos, just one point which may help your study, having been very lucky enough to read the Prince of Wales damage report and in particular the underwater 15 inch hit I can give some info on its path.

The Admiralty did a study of the path the shell took, it is described as stable and without pitch or yaw whilst under water, the shell entered the hull nose first and continued as such through the side protection system bulkheads its path being deflected slightly until its nose struck the torpedo bulkhead and bounced off landing where it was found.

I think Drachinifel suggests it may have entered base first but this is not what is suggested in the damage report, but I assume he may not have seen the report details. Of course this in no way detracts from Drachinifels good work, nor does it follow that any underwater hit follows strict rules regarding its path etc.

Hope that helps any future investigation a wee bit,

Best wishes
Cag.

Hello Cag,

Did the damage report of HMS PRINCE OF WALES give an estimate as to how far short of the ship the 38cm projectile entered the water before hitting the ship and how far below the waterline the point of entry was?

Hi All,

Hello Guest, yes I think so, I will dig it out of the attic and then post it on the King George V class thread if that's ok.

Best wishes
Cag.

I think we have some of the basic info here: http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... amage1.htm

_________________
Frank Allen
H.M.S. Hood Association
http://www.hmshood.org.uk

FWA

Many thanks: a quick glance reveals information that is most interesting. A "deeper" read will follow.

Cag,

Thanks for your kindness but offer has been overtaken by FWA's post.

EJF,

For interest, the Germans were aware of the ability of a projectile to travel underwater as early as 1930. There is a drawing of possible paths on Page 206 of H Evers' "Kriegsschiffbau" published by Julius Springer in 1931. It might interest you.

Well fellow Hood enthusiasts, I'm afraid I have some more colour changes to announce. Coming on the heels of the antifouling colour and boat deck corticene revelations, this will almost certainly cause even more confusion on the Hood colour front. Please take a look at the following and let me know what you think:

Background: You've all likely seen the famous 1939 colour film of Hood following her refit at Pompey/Portsmouth that year. The first portion shows her leaving Pompey and on trials. The second half shows her at sea with various Royal Navy and French ships later that year. The online version of the film is very poor in quality, but our Association has access to a better/cleaned up copy (which the copyright owner has not approved us to repost...we do apologise to all). Fortunately, some scenes have been televised/released before and others have made screen captures. That is what I will use here so as not to violate our agreement with the footage's owners.

Observation 1: Hood Possibly Had Tan/Brown Semtex
In the film, some crew and dockyard workers are seen standing on the shelter/boat deck right by station 205 starboard as the ship leaves port. The significance of this is that this is one of the areas CONFIRMED by the ship's books to have received semtex coating back in 1937. We don't believe it changed by 1939. Some sections of the deck are clearly wet with standing/pooled water. This is reflecting the sky and making those areas look light. Fortunately, the area of the deck in the foreground around the men's feet is dry/drier....and to me, it looks like its tan or brown. If its grey, its pretty damn dirty. Here's a screen cap (please don't repost on any other websites or outside this thread):


Observation 2: Hood Had Brown Searchlight Bulwarks
The film shows Hood at sea whilst blowing off steam. It shows the starboard then port side of her boat deck (the funnels take up most of the shots). When examined closely, one can clearly see the insides of the rear superstructure's lower/outer/forward searchlight platforms (the ones at the front corners of the little building just behind the main mast). The interiors are clearly BROWN. The ship was just freshy repainted too...that's not a bit that was overlooked etc. Here's a screen cap. Again, please don't repost it elsewhere):


I know, it doesn't seem like much, but if you think about some of the colour scheme beliefs we've always held, then the implication of these minor observations is obvious: perhaps Hood was less grey (above water) than we previously assumed. We were wrong about below water, so its possible we were also wrong in our above water colour beliefs. Its certainly cause to take these possibilities seriously.

The brown is a bit surprising, but then again, we always knew that the searchlight platforms etc., were painted darker on the inside. We had simply assumed they were dark grey. Of course, this film is from mid 1939 and maybe they repainted things grey by 1941, but then again, maybe not. Knowing Hood, I wouldn't be surprised if they carried the brown forward. After all, if Norman Ough's 1927 model is correct there was brown painted decking used on Hood's rear superstructure back in the 1920s. It was obviously still in use as of 1939. If that was used for that long (along with corticene, etc.) why would it not be used by 1941?

Yes, it is true that there was a wartime order/directive to darken decks/make horizontal surfaces similar/uniform in tone (I'm sure someone can elaborate on this further if they feel it fits in this thread). Some ships essentially stained their wooden decks and used paint to make things similar in tone. Perhaps, just perhaps, Hood had no need to make drastic changes: first, she did not appear to have darkened her wood decks (photos show it to be duller than previously, but not darker). We also know for a fact that she continued to wear large amounts of exterior corticene (dingy brown). If I've interpreted the colour film screen cap accurately, she may also have been using a tan/brown semtex. If she also continued to used dark brown (along with dark grey turret tops and non foot traffic horizontal areas), there may not have been a need to drastically tone her down.

Lets also remember that she was an older ship and she was "The Hood"...fancy and famous even in her day (just look at the that electric blue paint on her bell!). So, she may well have had some degree of flexibility in terms of her appearance (BC Squadron commander's choice).

Thoughts anyone? Although I love learning new things about Hood, I do sincerely wish the paint colours were not in any doubt. It would make things a lot easier. Sadly, its just not the case. As I repeatedly say, she may have been famous, but it doesn't mean she was always well documented.

BTW- I accidentally posted this in the wrong location initially. I almost immediately deleted it and reposted it to the Hood area of the forum!

_________________
Frank Allen
H.M.S. Hood Association
http://www.hmshood.org.uk

I feel the same way about Arizona. When I started archival researching in 2004 I had no idea that there was still so much unknown, unsettled, and just plain wrong about so many important ships! Thanks for your work and dedication to Hood's history!

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

FWA,

Re: Your Post of 01 Jan 6.10pm

Without wishing to be seen as immediately taking a firemain hose to the item I am frankly dubious as to the interpretation of the colours observed in your two attachments. I therefore offer two alternatives: the first does not show a "brown" deck, rather the eye is being seduced into thinking that it does by the colour of the overalls (if that is what they are) of the man standing on the area depicted. Secondly the inside of the searchlight zariba: I find it difficult to believe that even a "Daily Mirror" ship like HMS HOOD would have painted the structures brown. This does not chime well with what I believe would have been the Admiralty approved edict of the time. White and grey, I can believe but brown - I doubt it? Decorative: who would have seen it to admire it? It would no doubt have drawn many ribbald comments from the Lower Deck of other British capital ships had they seen it.

I will stand corrected if I see contemporary evidence or another correspondent can provide anecdotal proof from a member of HOOD's ship's company of the time; in the meantime therefore I venture to suggest that what one might be seeing is sunlight shining on that area which is being diffused (?) through funnel efflux.

Re: Your additional comment on "darkening" decks. Please refer to the Posts of 1.22pm 24 May 2020 and following on Page 7 of the HMS "R" Class Fans thread. It is understood that HMS RESOLUTION darkened her wood clad decks while she was with Force "H" in mid 1940. HOOD may have done so at around the same time: we don't have the photographic evidence to back that up though. However, as much a "one off" as she was, she was still subject to orders from "Above" and we are in danger of attributing more to her than she should be given.

With that I will leave this, pausing only to convey my regrets to EJF if my now suggesting that she may have darkened her wood-clad decks has dropped another "boulder" into his "pool."

Hi Guest

I think for once you might be off a bit on your last post. This is colour film and whilst the colours in such early film were not as accurate as what we are used to today they are way better than black and white photos. To me that semtex looks tan and I have difficulty with the suggestion that our eyes are somehow being fooled - sometime it is just what it is. When you add in that we know semtex was available in tan, then to me thats pretty conclusive. Not 100% certain but way better than anything else out there including crew memories many years after the event.

On the brown around the searchlights, well this is more problematic. I dont think it is conclusive - more a suggestion. But why? They would have needed to source non approved brown paint and I would be surprised they would do that without good reason which I cant fathom. Wild guess if it was brown would be to suggest corticene applied to a vertical surface, it was a lino based material so curve easily. But again, why?

On the decks, I understood the order to darken decks did not go into the how, and by how much. So there would have been quite a differance in interpretations. Some would go all in using paints others could argue not honeystoning them darkened the decks as required...

Hello Gcj,

My personal thanks for your thoughts on the matters raised. I will not argue with them save on the matter of the inside surfaces of the searchlight zariba: I cannot see the logic in anyone laying corticene on a vertical surface. It would be possible to obtain brown paint from non-service sources if the person responsible was prepared to put their hand in their pocket and pay for it: I can recall a stanza in a poem "The Laws of the Navy" by Rear Admiral Hopwood which would "permit" it.

Concerning darkening wood-clad decks, do read the posts on the Calling All HMS "R" Class fans thread mentioned in my last post. Subsequent to the one that I gave, one Medway 508 (?) actually gave details of the official specification for the mix to be used. Some ships may have decided to use a stain obtained locally like creosote. Certainly that is what my father told me was used by his ship but he may have confused it with the official mix: the smell would probably have been similar !

Very interesting screenshots Frank, thanks for sharing.

Not a British example, but this colour footage of the battleship Jean Bart from 1950 may be of interest?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eLBGbmEyq0

You can clearly see that the floor of her oerlikon tub on her second main gun turret is painted brown:



And also that her main deck forward of the breakwater is dark grey:



So it is not unprecedented for a large battleship to have some decks in brown and some in dark grey. Most models I have seen of Jean Bart show the steel decks as being all dark grey.

As per the footage above Jean Bart was a work in progress in 1950 and not fully reactivated or recommissioned. So some sections of deck are brown and others look to be raw steel plate that does not seem to have been painted yet at all. And then the section forward of the breakwater is dark grey.

Granted is it not a British example and 1950 was peacetime and not wartime. But it would seem brown was indeed used for decks on a large battleship, albeit a French one.

Guest - a little "how to" for you in order to take advantage of the forum software.

If you click on the "post subject" link at the top of any post it will take you to that post but with a URL direct to said post:



Said link for that post looks like this:



Note that it has the word "start" in it with numbers after that - if you copy and paste that URL into your posts this will take anyone who clicks on it to the thread in question and "start" at the post you want them to read:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=35645&start=120#p867126

This will help people quickly find what you are looking for *but* just as importantly if threads get moved or trimmed the link will still take them there even if page 7 is now 5 or 10.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Many thanks for your post Mr Church. That is definitely most interesting!

For those who doubt brown-
The fact is that Hood had MOSTLY brown (non-wooden) weather decks for most of her career: There was heavy corticene usage on the bridge and shelter deck, and even though some of this was replaced by semtex, we’ve proven that a large quantity still remained. It can be seen in many period photos (and on the wreck itself). The point I’m making is that we now know that brown decks are hardly odd for Hood. That being said, perhaps other surfaces (like the searchlight platform) were deliberately made to be of a similar tone/shade?

The searchlight platform in question doesn’t appear (to me) to be affected by exhaust filtered/diffused sunlight. It’s not blurry and nothing around it looks out of the ordinary. We are literally seeing a brown bulwark. So, as tempting as it may seem, we shouldn’t automatically write it off simply because it doesn’t fit what we currently know or any preconceived ideas we may have. It’s inconvenient, but it’s there.

Was the brown platform a temporary/test arrangement? Did a community gift some paint (just kidding)? Was it an authorised exception? Was it a (currently not well known) official variation (pre-war/early war)? Did other big ships with corticene do likewise? It was there...so why was it there?

Its possible that like the circle and line on "A" turret or her odd dark & light "paint scheme" (for lack of a better term) from April & early May 1941, we may never find the answer, but we should try (especially if it turns out it could have been something done aboard other ships).

As for the semtex, my eyes were not actually deceived by the colour of the workmen’s overalls; even with the men cropped out, the colour appears the same to me. Nevertheless, it doesn’t mean I’m correct. I fully realise that others may have different interpretations: for example, one of my colleagues said it struck him as being a dirty grey/aged concrete or perhaps rust on the deck. Another said it looked similar to the colour of corticene. One also disagreed that we’re seeing water on the deck in the background; he thought it was a light-coloured material. So, we have some notably different interpretations. The point is, there is no confirmed evidence that her semtex was any particular colour, and with multiple options being available, the chance that it wasn’t grey needs to be accepted as a possibility. She already had brown decks so perhaps they chose something complimentary?
It’s as clear as mud (pardon the colour pun).

As for stained wooden decks, our 1940/41 onboard photos suggest that her decks were dulled down, but not darkened significantly. It’s extremely difficult to tell for certain. The wreck itself has some quite intact wood (which doesn't look dark), but its been submerged in salt water in a strong tidal area for many decades now, so it may not be the best example. As for anecdotal evidence, I did ask Ted Briggs about the wooden decks and he told me they were bare wood. So, if he remembered that aspect of Hood accurately, her deck must not have been too terribly dark or greyish. Of course, he also added a caveat: he had served so long and had been around so many ships and establishments that many minor details tended to blend together. Needless to say, if we come across something that shows evidence of staining, etc., we will definitely let everyone know.

Note- this post was tweaked after posting (but before any responses) to correct some grammatical/spelling errors and inconsistencies.

_________________
Frank Allen
H.M.S. Hood Association
http://www.hmshood.org.uk

Tracy,

Re: Post of 4.26pm 3 Jan.

Thank you. However, I will put References into my posts in the simplest way that I consider best. That way people can either chase them up as they see fit or totally ignore them. It saves clogging up precious space with a lot of rubbish!

Whilst I am as puzzled as everyone else by this brown surface, there would have been no need to go to non-service sources for such a colour. The contemporary Rate Book lists a paste for paints, Pattern 15W, brown, Vandyke, a colour which does not look so very different to what is seen in Frank's film.

Many thanks for providing this example Dick!

On a side note, the post about the French warship prompted me to look up colour footage of Vanguard. I remembered watching (a couple of years ago) a short film about her voyage to the breakers. I relocated that on YouTube at https://youtu.be/Db6bgu0gs-g and noticed that she too had a bit of brown on her decks. Of course, this was admittedly nearly 20 years after Hood and on an entirely different section of the ship (it was painted onto her anchor cable rubbing plates). Not the same thing as Hood at all, but at least it shows brown was used elsewhere.

_________________
Frank Allen
H.M.S. Hood Association
http://www.hmshood.org.uk

But it still doesn't prove that the inside of the zariba of HMS HOOD's searchlight platform was painted brown.

Brown was still provided to the Royal Navy as of the late 1970's in small quantities for damage control and pipe markings and may
still be for all I know. It was known then as "Golden brown" but was probably of "Dick's" "Vandyke" shade.

The shade jumped on by Frank as used in HMS VANGUARD (1944) on her cable deck was likely to have been the red-brown that was still in use in the mid 1960's but thereafter replaced by what was referred to as "Brunswick green." It was certainly not Vandyke brown. It looked lovely fresh (I can see it now): until the stokers blew soot over it for the first time!

I am tickled (Mountbatten?) Pink that there was actually a Van Dyke Brown given that I've held actual US Navy VanDykes and I'm pretty sure the Royal Navy used them as well.

_________________
Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

First the good news. It seems the Flyhawk HMS Hood is getting near to release


Sorry not quite got the hang of posting links to othe threads.

On the subject of brown around the searchlights clearly colour footage is compelling but makes me wonder (never a good thing) about other vertical internal facing surfaces. Would that be brown as well? The trouble is with black and white photos brown and dark grey are going to look pretty similar...