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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:44 pm 
Hmmm....interesting stuff. Makes me glad my 1/200 build has been stalled for a few months, I will continue to hold off now as all this new info will be incorporated. Refards, Pete in RI


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:20 pm 
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FW_Allen wrote:
chuck wrote:
every photo I’ve seen showing the stanchions under the boat deck shows they were painted partially white, from maybe a foot above deck level upwards. this suggest to me the underside of the deck above might also have been painted white.


Hi Chuck,

The support pillars did indeed have centre sections which were painted white, with the bottom and top segments being hull coloured. Here’s a shot from @1933-1935:
Image.
From what I’ve seen in various photos, the vertical bulkheads in the area would’ve been hull coloured with a darker strip along the bottom. I believe this would also include the “enclosed” forward gun positions before they were removed, but it’s honestly difficult to tell for certain because in most photos the area is in shadow. In the few that we do have that are onboard close-ups, it was from during her time with the Mediterranean fleet...and it’s difficult to discern 507C from white in some of these old b&w photos. That or the angle is such that the bulkheads cannot be seen.

As for the deck head in this area, it’s very difficult to tell from the photos that we have…again, the clearest of these are from her Mediterranean service…it’s the old 507C vs white problem again. Fortun, I did find a shot from 1933-35 which MAY show a lighter deck head:
Image
It’s hard to say with 100% certainty though (glare, etc).

I also have an April 1941 shot of the port side area. Of course, the exposure is such that everything looks a bit light at a time when the ship was dark. Even so, to me the deck head looks much like the vertical surfaces:
Image

Of course, it’s difficult to tell if this was a wartime measure or standard practice. The paint experts here on the form may be able to comment on this better than I.


I have found another shot on our website, this time from 1934/35: it shows the lobby near the commander’s cabin (this was on the starboard side just inboard of the small rectangular opening where the stairways reached up from the quarterdeck). As you can see, the vertical surfaces are hull coloured but the deck head is definitely white. So, perhaps the colours depended on the timeframe/state of affairs (peacetime or war)...
http://www.hmshood.com/photos/miscellaneous/lobby.jpg

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:24 am 
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Some additional Cortic(e/i)ne images from the colour footage that Thomas Schmidt uploaded to youtube.

Attachment:
HMS Hood and other ships in color! - DASH.mp4_snapshot_04.29_[2020.11.09_13.03.14].jpg
HMS Hood and other ships in color! - DASH.mp4_snapshot_04.29_[2020.11.09_13.03.14].jpg [ 68.65 KiB | Viewed 612 times ]


Note the colour of the deck of the Admiral's signal platform, including brass strips.

Attachment:
HMS Hood and other ships in color! - DASH.mp4_snapshot_04.13_[2020.11.09_13.02.46].jpg
HMS Hood and other ships in color! - DASH.mp4_snapshot_04.13_[2020.11.09_13.02.46].jpg [ 66.42 KiB | Viewed 612 times ]


Bottom left, note the same colour on the far fwd shelterdeck.

Here is the entire movie, both shots around 4:12



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:47 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Some additional Cortic(e/i)ne images from the colour footage that Thomas Schmidt uploaded to youtube.

Attachment:
HMS Hood and other ships in color! - DASH.mp4_snapshot_04.29_[2020.11.09_13.03.14].jpg


Note the colour of the deck of the Admiral's signal platform, including brass strips.

Attachment:
HMS Hood and other ships in color! - DASH.mp4_snapshot_04.13_[2020.11.09_13.02.46].jpg


Bottom left, note the same colour on the far fwd shelterdeck.

Here is the entire movie, both shots around 4:12



Brown decks and grey bottoms! It’s a year of change for the Hood modellers!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:08 pm 
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Did I just watch most amazing british capital ship footage ever in color?! I dunno how I missed it.

I would be very happy if guys at Hood Association and Flyhawk nail this mystery and we could get some clarity on timing of underwater hull paint - as sunk, 1939s, etc - and color - black, slate grey, or red.

Reading those testimonies post Hood explosion I recall reading someone comment that Hood's hull was "black" when she sunk. And a commentary that it might have been too dark to tell, or it was just coated in oil, or discolored, or all of the above. Indeed no mention of red. So thats your slate grey anecdotal evidence.

On the other hand, Hood is photographed heading to Denmark Strait with PoW and there you see a clearly lighter grey paint below a fairly thick boot topping midships, peeking through the waves that part. So - my hunch - either grey grey, or just red as sunk, but in late 1930s pre war - evidence presented is hinting at grey of some color....

Fascinating for me, as Id love to repaint mine if this is accurately confirmed. I wont do much on cortesene as thats a bit too much. Funny, how grey deck and red bottom were may be grey bottom and red deck...

To satisfy my inner nerd I mocked up 2 versions as I would potentially build them using my own model (in 1/700). I guess something like this is how I would imagine Hood with grey and black bottoms. I tried to give it a little green discoloration and patchiness of lighter colors. But original is shown last. :)


Attachments:
Hood Black Bottom 1 .jpg
Hood Black Bottom 1 .jpg [ 99.1 KiB | Viewed 532 times ]
Hood Grey Bottom 1.jpg
Hood Grey Bottom 1.jpg [ 99.69 KiB | Viewed 532 times ]
Original Hood red bottom.jpg
Original Hood red bottom.jpg [ 100.42 KiB | Viewed 532 times ]

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:10 pm 
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My apologies to everyone for failing to include a copy of the 1939 docking report…or rather, copies of the two 1939 reports. One covers a docking at the end of 1938 (the report was dated January 1939) and the second covers her big refit in Pompey in September 1939. As you’ll see, there is no mention of underside colour.

Attachment:
A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg
A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg [ 56.39 KiB | Viewed 488 times ]

and
Attachment:
E92DB522-E469-49DC-A110-46201D997327.jpeg
E92DB522-E469-49DC-A110-46201D997327.jpeg [ 54.93 KiB | Viewed 488 times ]


I’ve found no such report for 1941 yet, but we know for a fact she was drydocked at Rosyth and almost certainly had her bottom repainted.

So, what does this mean for Hood’s underside during war time? It means we don’t really know, 100%, what colour she was under the water. If I had to make an educated guess however, I would lean towards gray (maybe even black). It’s possible that the reason the reports don’t mention colours is because they retained the same colours. We’ve also seen anecdotal information that points to dark grey or black. Lastly, we have observations of the wreck. More on each below:

Anecdotal Info- In ADM 116/4351, some PofW men described Hood’s bottom as being black...some describe the bottom being painted black whereas others describe hull sections looking black (likely due to battle damage). Of course, due to conditions, etc., they could’ve also been seeing dark grey and battle damage. In another anecdotal account, we were also once contacted by a chap, with a model of Hood that had a black bottom (note: I edited this underlined section to be more clear...my original wording was not quite correct and a bit confusing). He mentioned that an old fellow who used to be a dockhand told him that it was the first time he had seen a model have the correct color bottom (supposedly he had painted Hood’s bottom black during the war).

We didn’t place a lot of faith in these reports as there was not much to back them up really, and earlier experts had been telling us she was red down below. Of course, we also believed expert opinion that she was medium grey above the water...which is now known to be incorrect. In short we’re only human and we do make mistakes.

Wreck- The stern is the best preserved section of Hood. It has intact wood decking, glass scuttles, degaussing cable, and lots of paint. It’s somewhat vertical position has made it difficult for the tides to deposit a lot of sediment (unlike other sections of the ship). In the footage/photos I have seen of the underside, there is no red (other than rust of course)… It’s dark and it’s highly suggestive of dark gray or even black. Admittedly, it’s hard to tell because of the lighting conditions and distance...But I suspect red anti-fouling which had been recently applied, would be readily visible. Here’s an unretouched collage (note: The ones in the wreck page(s) on the Hood website have been brightened/filtered to remove some of the blue/green water effect…but not the versions seen here).
Attachment:
7468E863-8157-440F-851D-6B5AB73AEBDF.jpeg
7468E863-8157-440F-851D-6B5AB73AEBDF.jpeg [ 65.96 KiB | Viewed 486 times ]

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Last edited by FW_Allen on Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:58 pm 
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AMAZING footage! Hood with all her 5.5's....Iron Duke with her proto 5.25/4.5 on Y barbette......an Amphion class at about 0:45? I couldn't see if she had single or twin 4-inchers


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:07 pm 
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At this point we’ve already seen enough photos to know that corticine was definitely on Hood’s forward boat deck, but now we have it in writing...it’s in ADM 136/13, Vol 4: It’s a form D101 from 1938 and it mentions that, among other things, corticine on the boat deck was renewed. So, we already knew it, but it’s nice to see it in contemporary official documentation.

So folks, no dark grey on the forward deck...bust out the brown paint.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:13 am 
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Excellent find!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:03 am 
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FW_Allen wrote:
My apologies to everyone for failing to include a copy of the 1939 docking report…or rather, copies of the two 1939 reports. One covers a docking at the end of 1938 (the report was dated January 1939) and the second covers her big refit in Pompey in September 1939. As you’ll see, there is no mention of underside colour.

Attachment:
The attachment A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg is no longer available

and
Attachment:
The attachment A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg is no longer available


I’ve found no such report for 1941 yet, but we know for a fact she was drydocked at Rosyth and almost certainly had her bottom repainted.

So, what does this mean for Hood’s underside during war time? It means we don’t really know, 100%, what colour she was under the water. If I had to make an educated guess however, I would lean towards gray (maybe even black). It’s possible that the reason the reports don’t mention colours is because they retained the same colours. We’ve also seen anecdotal information that points to dark grey or black. Lastly, we have observations of the wreck. More on each below:

Anecdotal Info- In ADM 116/4351, some PofW men described Hood’s bottom as being black...some describe the bottom being painted black whereas others describe hull sections looking black (likely due to battle damage). Of course, due to conditions, etc., they could’ve also been seeing dark grey and battle damage. In another anecdotal account, we were also once contacted by a chap, with a model of Hood that had a dark grey or black bottom (I don’t remember which). He mentioned that an old fellow who used to be a dockhand told him that it was the first time he had seen a model have the correct color bottom (supposedly he had painted Hood’s bottom black or gray during the war).

We didn’t place a lot of faith in these reports as there was not much to back them up really, and earlier experts had been telling us she was red down below. Of course, we also believed expert opinion that she was medium grey...in short we’re only human and we do make mistakes.

Wreck- The stern is the best preserved section of Hood. It has intact wood decking, glass scuttles, degaussing cable, and lots of paint. It’s somewhat vertical position has made it difficult for the tides to deposit a lot of sediment (unlike other sections of the ship). In the footage/photos I have seen of the underside, there is no red (other than rust of course)… It’s dark and it’s highly suggestive of dark gray or even black. Admittedly, it’s hard to tell because of the lighting conditions and distance...But I suspect red anti-fouling which had been recently applied, would be readily visible. Here’s an unretouched collage (note: The ones in the wreck page(s) on the Hood website have been brightened/filtered to remove some of the blue/green water effect…but not the versions seen here).
Attachment:
The attachment A73EE01F-5D3E-49A7-A7B7-1857D59B81AE.jpeg is no longer available


Just to double check couple of points regarding the bottom.

1) Was Hood unique among British capital ships of the era with black or grey bottom? Or was that also on other capital ships like KGV, Rodney etc and we need to start adjusting ALL british capital ships in early 40s late 30s?

2) Isnt the usual aging process of red antifouling paint and its composition lead to a grey color over long time exposure under water anyway? So how can we use sunk Hood that spent so much time under water as an indicator on red paint that tends to go grey over time? You see what Im saying? ... is Bismarck all "red" under water? Typically the rust forms most on areas that burned I understand so thats your red or rust confusion.

3) Based on this picture I would caution against full black lower hull. A grey one is more reasonable, I think. See contrast between boot topping and lower hull below on a picture last taken of Hood... From Hood association page.

4) I am super tempted to repaint my Hood model now... anyone has 1/700 RN plimsoll markings? :heh:


Attachments:
Hood - not black bottom - grey.jpg
Hood - not black bottom - grey.jpg [ 158.96 KiB | Viewed 412 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:27 am 
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At this point we’ve already seen enough photos to know that corticine was definitely on Hood’s forward boat deck


All non wood areas of whole deck? From around bridge structure up to boats area?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:28 am 
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Yes, either wood, corticene or semtex. Dave Weldon pointed out that corticine was present on the boat deck :thanks:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:57 am 
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pascalemod wrote:

1) Was Hood unique among British capital ships of the era with black or grey bottom? Or was that also on other capital ships like KGV, Rodney etc and we need to start adjusting ALL british capital ships in early 40s late 30s?



Based on the evidence I have from the museums and archives:

a. Was Hood unique: probably not.

b. Do we need to adjust all British capital ships: I would say no. Some appear to have been red (at least at some points in time) eg KGV, DoY & Nelson.

I'm going to write a little article on this issue based on what info I have and Jamie has kindly agreed to host it on his Sovereign Hobbies website. But as I said back in my original post on this matter on 4th Nov viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4702&start=700#p920109, to know whether it was grey, black, or red on any particular ship at any particular time you would need to look at the D.495 forms for each individual ship.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:41 am 
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dick wrote:
pascalemod wrote:

1) Was Hood unique among British capital ships of the era with black or grey bottom? Or was that also on other capital ships like KGV, Rodney etc and we need to start adjusting ALL british capital ships in early 40s late 30s?



Based on the evidence I have from the museums and archives:

a. Was Hood unique: probably not.

b. Do we need to adjust all British capital ships: I would say no. Some appear to have been red (at least at some points in time) eg KGV, DoY & Nelson.

I'm going to write a little article on this issue based on what info I have and Jamie has kindly agreed to host it on his Sovereign Hobbies website. But as I said back in my original post on this matter on 4th Nov viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4702&start=700#p920109, to know whether it was grey, black, or red on any particular ship at any particular time you would need to look at the D.495 forms for each individual ship.


Looking forward to that very much, thank you for taking your time and doing this for all of us. :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:32 pm 
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Would anyone be able to help me out with a list of the different types and amounts of boats and launches carried by Hood as sunk? Looking to replace the horrendous lumps of plastic in the Trump 1/350 kit with 3D printed parts from micromaster but not sure what is meant to represent what. Thanks in advance efor any help with this. Ta

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:39 pm 
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We already knew this, but again, it’s good to see it “in writing” in Hood’s books: painting of external propeller shafts is confirmed. In some 1920s reports they painted it with red lead and then an unspecified colour of antifouling coating (P&B). Again, something already known, but nice to verify.

I also saw an early 1920s reference to one of her propellers being painted with “gold size,” whatever that was/is. Can anyone explain?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:48 pm 
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FW_Allen wrote:
I also saw an early 1920s reference to one of her propellers being painted with “gold size,” whatever that was/is. Can anyone explain?

Google turned this up: http://www.gold-vault.com/gold_size_or_adhesive.html

Quote:
A gold size is an adhesive which is used to make the gold metal leaf adhere to the desired area to be gilded. There are sizes made from water and gelatine and various oil varnishes. I use a shellac gilding size as it is cheap & easy to make up, also this shellac size is used to give a sealing coat to the work as it imparts a pleasing colour.


Presumably they weren't actually going to put gold metal leaf on the propellers, so this "size" might have been used in the latter capacity as a top sealing coat.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:46 pm 
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pascalemod wrote:
2) Isnt the usual aging process of red antifouling paint and its composition lead to a grey color over long time exposure under water anyway? So how can we use sunk Hood that spent so much time under water as an indicator on red paint that tends to go grey over time? You see what Im saying? ... is Bismarck all "red" under water? Typically the rust forms most on areas that burned I understand so thats your red or rust confusion.

3) Based on this picture I would caution against full black lower hull. A grey one is more reasonable, I think. See contrast between boot topping and lower hull below on a picture last taken of Hood... From Hood association page.


Hood’s bottom was painted only 3 to 5 months prior to her loss. Her topside was painted during the same month of her loss. We’d expect some loss and fading but not so much as to be unrecognizable. Of all the recognizable segments of Hood, the stern is by far the best preserved. The paint is in great condition...if red were there, I suspect we’d see it.

Bismarck? Yes, I know how rust corresponds to fire damage. As for her bottom, I recall that her bottom “red” is easily seen in a some places and on some detached sections of the bottom. Faded, yes for the most part, but it still stands out. Of course, we could get closer to Bismarck than we could Hood...and Bismarck is in far better condition.

I agree that slate grey is more likely than black. Whatever colour it was, it doesn’t seem to have been standard red (not after 1936 anyway).

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:53 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Yes, either wood, corticene or semtex. Dave Weldon pointed out that corticine was present on the boat deck :thanks:

Yes he did! For folks who don’t know, he’s a long time Hood researcher who has amassed an amazing amount of knowledge/information. Indeed, it was also Dave who originally provided the Hood Association with the painting instructions that we incorporated into our website. We have modified them quite a bit since then, but we could have never gotten the ball rolling without his help. So, when he makes an observation (such as Hood having corticine on her forward shelter deck) we listen!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:56 pm 
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Timmy C wrote:

Presumably they weren't actually going to put gold metal leaf on the propellers, so this "size" might have been used in the latter capacity as a top sealing coat.


That makes sense to me Timmy! Thanks!

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