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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:26 am 
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Location: New Zealand
The upper and lower hull components on my Trump Hood were accurate for length as far as fit went Frank.
What I did to help the two parts fit together with only minor gaps that I easily filled with super glue was to use sprue to make up a series of spacers that did the same job as bulkheads and fitted across the inside of the upper hull at the water line.
I applied the poly cement to the lower hull, put it in place and inserted the spacers with a pair of pliers and tweaked them into place to align things better.
I could have left them there and glued the decks in place, but when the poly had set I removed them.
The flexibility in the thin hull castings is a good thing when you finally get around to putting the decks into place, as every thing can be pulled together with sellotape or similar to get a seamless deck to hull join and the completed hull and deck unit becomes a robust inflexible unit. :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:21 am 
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EJ Foeth wrote:
I'm happy to see my custom etch set is still the best accuracy wise. Perhaps I should start selling it?


Hi Foeth,

I'd be interested in this if you did decide to make it available..

What price though?

Regards,

Joseph


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:27 am 
Hello Jospeh,

I ran into a few problems with my etch set, so I need to adapt and re-etch a few area's. For instance, most of my foldeable stairs are breakable stairs, all the steps broke off during folding (it's too thin and not brass, doesn't bend!) ... I really want stairs with steps, so I have to do adapt it! So, I have to iron out a few issues. I used about half of the parts, so there might still be a few suprises. I'm now not sure if I'll buy a few etch tools and do it myself or have it etched, but I think the formed. One other MW member etched his own parts with tools from the same supplier, and it looked pretty impressive.

So as it is now, it's way too expensive with a few bad parts. I'm not sure when I'll re-etch some parts, may be some time. Note that if I'm going to re-etch the current design without adaptions, costs for 1 plate is €26, etching it costs €10 for setup (once only, so dimishes with more orders) and they charge €20 for postage.

So it appears it's not too smart to start selling it!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:44 am 
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Hi Foeth,

Thanks very much for the reply. I'm sorry to hear you are having such problems... it seems like this would otherwise be the world-beater PE fret for Hood. I'll settle for the WEM one however.

After reading what you said about the GMM vs. WEM options - and also what has been discussed here regarding the LionRoar sets... I think I'll have to stick with WEM's set. At least it has the PE starfish - over the GMM fret as well.

This all said... I wouldn't mind picking up the GMM frets anyway, for other projects I am working on... Oh dear, the bill is mounting!!

Thanks again,

Joseph

PS: Something not quite related - but a topic of conversation here no less: That degaussing cable... some emphasis here has been on which PE degaussing cable to use; but a cable being a cable - wouldn't it make more sense to use thin copper wire or the like?? I must admit I am not really thrilled with the sight of any of the cables I am seeing thus far...

PPS: Where is one to find good barrels now? Can anybody recommend a supplier who actually turns these with the aforementioned shimms and concentric jackets around the muzzle?


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 Post subject: Corrections
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:07 am 
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So has anyone compiled a list of all the corrections necessary for the Trumpeter Hood yet as is in her 1941 makeup in one place? I've been searching through all the messages both here and at the Hood Assoc site, but haven't come up with a complete list as yet.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:25 pm 
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Hi Kurt,

I replied to your original post in the "Hood One More Time Thread", but said response was moved here (as it should have). Unfortunately, the original question wasn't moved as well, so the response didn't make much sense here (it was before the question). So, I'm going to repost the response right here:

Start
First, let me say for the record that the Trumpeter kit is the best kit yet produced of Hood. Its not perfect, but its still the best to date. I for one am grateful to them for producing it...and for being consulted during the design phase. We had a chance to review their original plans and we pointed out A LOT of potential errors and made a few suggestions.

Unfortunately, we didn't catch everything, but it wasn't through a lack of trying. Simply put, we reviewed the design via printouts- plan and profile views of the ship (a bit "fuzzy" too, so some features weren't overly clear, but most were). The main problem was simply that the views were limited...its sometimes difficult to judge a feature when you can only see a plan or profile drawing. So, some things that looked correct in the drawings may not be correct when seen in 3 dimensions.

For their part, Trumpeter did actually listen and made changes to everything they were told about. They even incorporated some "firsts" (such as the correct shaped rear/centreline 4" gun splintershield and correct shaped Motorboat Workshop behind the second funnel). Sadly, there were some other discoveries that came in too late to be incorporated into the model. I'll list these out here (along with the most glaring problems I have noticed).

I have not yet built my kit. I've looked it over but am awaiting some free time in which to start it. So, people who have built the kit probably are the best ones to consult for various fit and finish problems. For my part, here are the biggest problems to contend with (and the new discoveries):

Hull- The plating is indeed over scale, but this is understandable considering the situation. Most people don't need to be bothered with it, but those who insist upon perfection can thin it out or replace it.

Degaussing Cable- Not correct in shape. Remove it and replace it with photoetch. The real cable was somewhat sloppy in the bow area (due to it being displaced by the clump cathead and hawsepipes).

Hawsepipes - They are not open. At this scale, they should be. So, these need to be drilled out. The problem is, it may be difficult for some modellers to get the correct interior shape/get the tops to line up with the bottoms.

Main gun turrets- They come with ridges that runs beneath the roof bolts. This makes the roof plates look recessed. They also lack the large viewports in the face. Very difficult to fix these errors- replace them with aftermarket turrets if you want it to be right. May as well use brass barrels while you're at it.

AAA guns/boats- They need detailing. Use photoetch, etc.

"B" Turret UP- This is a new one, just noticed by EJ Foeth (of course!) and confirmed by me. If you look at the UP atop B turret from above, you will see that it sits atop a circular platform with two additional squarish platforms...one to port, one to starboard. Around the circular platform is a splinter shield. To date, all drawings and models show a shield of uniform height. In reality, the shield had higher segments directly to port and starboard. You can see a photo of this on the Hood website at http://hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models/tip ... yfixes.jpg
and http://hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models/tip ... fixes2.jpg

Conning Tower- The viewport slits vary in height. The ones created by adding part A30 to the Conning Tower Platform is the row that is too high. It needs to be slimmed down somehow...the slits should all be the same height. Also, be sure to fill in the seams!

Admiral's Bridge (A18)- Remove the two "knobs". These were gone by 1941.

Add Signalmen's Shelters- New discovery by EJ Foeth and myself and confirmed with John Roberts. These weren't shown in his book as they couldn't really be seen in plan/profile views of the ship. We are basing this on long distance photos and information that said work was done. There is no great detailed up close imagery of these known at this time.

These are narrow structures located between the HACS MkIII* and sides of bridge. See Page 14 of the intstruction booklet. The HACS Mk III* are the two items made from E18, E19 and E21. See where they tell you to add the HACS Mk III* and a large centre section of the bridge (the Conning Tower Platform)? You need to add the shelters between the HACS and the lower sides of the Conning Tower Platform. The shelters were about the smae width as the "tube" that the HACS sat on. The shelters will go from the deck to just beneath the actual HACS (leave room for the HACS to rotate. There will be a small door in the shelter's rear very close to the HACS "tubes". You can see the location in the photo I mentioned earlier (with the "B" turret UP splinter shield)

Radar Hood- Remove small box from the left rear of part D34. EJ Foeth has correctly deduced (and John Roberts has told me he thinks EJ is correct) that there was no box. It was actually an optical illusion. The overall dimensions of the hood were the same as always. So, remove it and add a section of raised roof above the left rear corner.

Cut down tubes (E32)- Too tall, wrong shape. At least cut off the straight portion at the bottom. Cover tops.

After Superstructure- Put canvas over the square windows around the lower rear of the structure. There is also a slight problem on the port side where the structure is indented (D11). There is a sharp edge at the top of the indent...this should be angled inward actually.

Various ladders in wrong locations, hatches where there should be lockers, etc. - There are a number of instances. I'l leave this to others to point out (I'm too tired right now...had a long week!). For my part, here are some glaring examples- the Disinfector House has an extra ladder and the Motorboat Workshop has an extra door. Remove the ladder and door from part B26. There are other instances as well. I'll leave it to others to point these out (I'm too tired to do it right now, LOL!). As for hatches, the pom pom bandstand (B46) appears to have hatches where it should have lockers. Come to think of it, the base of the bandstand (B31 and B32) appears to be the wrong shape. I need to look into this...

Motorboat Workshop- The square windows atop B28 are just that-windows. Stop plating them over with photoetch grilles! I've noticed this trend...

Replace "X" turret platforms (C11 and C12) - EJ Foeth correctly determined the correct shape using various photos from our archives. He is 100% correct. These were not flat angular platforms in 1941. They were actually two identically sized frameworks (when viewed from above, they were made up of square segments with X cross beams in the centre of each square). Each "platform" consisted of three such squares. The only reason one appears smaller than the other is because of the changing shape of the turret beneath them. This causes a bit of an optical illusion.

"My book says this"- Some of you will, no doubt, pull out your Anatomy of the Ship, Classic Warships books, plans, etc. and disagree with some things I say. Go right ahead, but be advised that some of the things mentioned here are changes to what was previously known...they arent in any books/plans or models. Please remember that some of the old sources are excellent (especially the Anatomy of the Ship book...John is a true master of his craft and is just about the most down to earth and a heck of a truly nice gentleman as well!), but that at the time they were created, they didn't have a lot of information on various structures. This is why some features aren't covered in detail. Also, there was a bit of deduction based on limited phototgraphy involved in some areas (such as the "box" on the radar hood, X turret platforms, etc.

Since then, many new photos have been uncovered (as have colour film,, plus the wreck has been filmed, etc.), so, we have more information. That is all. Had this information been available when the plans were drawn/books were written, it would have been incorporated. They did the hard work and the rest of us have the luxury of being able to build upon it with new photos, etc. So, by pointing out errors, I am by no means slamming the earlier books, plans, etc. On the contrary, we would be nowhere without them.

Anyway, we'll eventually write an article about these details for the Hood website. Not only is the Trumpeter kit affected by these things, but so is the 1/700 Tamiya.

Lastly- please forgive my poor grammar and any spelling errors...its been a long week and I am completely knackered.

End

Frank
http://hmshood.com

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Last edited by FW_Allen on Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Missing Detail
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:40 pm 
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Location: Melbourne Australia
I was thumbing through my copy of a Polish Publication called, "Profile Morskie, HMS HOOD" last night and discovered a detailed illustration (the book is a small A5 sized set of fold out drawings and photos) showing a trunk/pipe running up the port side of the aft support for the main mast. I checked a number of photos and sure enough it existed. a clear photo is on page 212 of 'Bruce Taylors The battlecruiser Hood' I'm finding this to be am excellent set of drawing.

http://homepage.mac.com/davidgatt/modelsite/Menu10.html


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 Post subject: Re: Missing Detail
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:13 pm 
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Location: Westerville, Ohio
David:

I went to your site and as always a great build. I really like your deck, did you use wood or did you use paint. Very conviencing indeed.

Dick Wood

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:42 pm 
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Thanks for taking the time Frank, if only every other RN WW2 capital ship received this level of attention that Hood does!:heh:

I can concur also that John Roberts is one heck of a nice guy! :thumbs_up_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Missing Detail
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:42 pm 
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dick wood wrote:
David:

I went to your site and as always a great build. I really like your deck, did you use wood or did you use paint. Very conviencing indeed.

Dick Wood


Thanks, I used my standard paint job on the deck as described in my 'how to' on my web site.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:32 am 
The polish drawing is quite useable, but they filled in many blanks. Of course, they didn't fill them in correctly. The bridge and so forth is all quite nicely drawn out, but I don't think it's a substitute for the AOTS Hood volume. Their drawings and the boats and launches are mainly all wrong (so is Roberts by the way). Overal the drawing is good but -as always- check your photographs. I've noticed that a lot of typical RN drawings are just not right. I just found out that even Lamberts UP-launcher drawing is not reliable....


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:00 am 
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Yes I agree, all drawings need to be cross referenced with actual photos. Which is why I also included the photo refererence. However just another thing that can be easily done/added to enhance the kit.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:20 am 
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David- Ah yes, the diesel pipe that ran up the aft port leg of the main mast! I forgot about that one...need to add it to the list! Thats something all kits tend to leave out.

Kurt- I don't know when I'll write the article. Time is an issue of late. I've been exceptionally busy recoding the Hood website to xhtml standards (its very large and is taking forever to complete). I've also been away being filmed for a television programme on the battle between Bismarck and Hood (I was terrible in front of the camera! In fact, I'll be surprised if any of my footage makes it into the show :lol_3: ). What I may do instead is create a running list of "items to look out for". Not necessarily just for Trumpeter, but for any model of Hood (as sunk). As people mention new items, I can add them to the list. Its not perfect, but it will at least be something. Between forum threads such as this and the upcoming running list on the Hood site, modellers will learn what they need to know. As people build and detail their models, we can probably add photos as well (actual photos of the ship and then examples of the detailed areas on models).

Polish book on Hood- Evert-Jan's assessment was spot-on. Not sure how they arrived at some of their deductions either...for example, I have no idea why the artist thought he should draw a bulkhead/splinter shield around the top of the Disinfector House...looks like only the searchlight platforms had this. So, "caveat emptor". I suggest sticking with the Anatomy of the Ship book...and to keep checking for information at sites such as this or the Hood Association website. Look at photos, ask questions, check to see what a certain fellow from the Netherlands has done with his model of Hood, etc.

Frank

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 Post subject: More things to add...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:31 pm 
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The narrow twin vents to the rear bulkheads of both "B" and "X" gunhouses...

Also, remember that you can always "cheat" when it comes to various boats...cover them with canvas! That should save a little time for some of us (I know that is what I plan on doing for some of the boats- the ones on the Shelter Deck abreast the building between the funnels and of course, the Admiral's Barge...

We anticipate having a couple more changes coming your way soon (we keep finding new things...well, mostly Evert-Jan finds them!)

Frank

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 Post subject: Even More Changes!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:10 am 
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Well, when it rains it pours:

Additional detailed review of extremely enlarged photos by Evert-Jan and I have revealed some more details that need to be incorporated into the Trumpeter model. Furthermore, we have run these items by John Roberts for additional input and verification.

1. Add a Platform to Hood's foremast starfish. There was a platform fitted on the starboard side of the starfish, along the side of the Spotting Top, between the starboard/forward arm and the small signal light platform just aft of starboard/centre. This has been seen in just one photo, from April 1941. Normally, we like to use more photos, but in this case, there are precious few of the ship from this timeframe. There are currently no other known photos of this area from after the radar was fitted.

The platform is slim, but has supports beneath it and even has a fixed railing which point to it being permanent rather than temporary. Additionally, a section of the roof overhang and window ledge have been removed and a small ladder set up on the starboard/forward side of the Spotting Top. There was also a beefed up starfish underside support in this area.

I asked John Roberts about this and he theorised that the platform was possibly permanent and one potential reason for its addition is the Type 279 radar. Roof access would have been made more difficult after the addition of the radar, so it may have been necessary to "reroute" traffic. Let me stress that this is not a definite answer, but considering the person making the assessment, its got a high percentage of being correct! So, I plan on adding it to my model.

How to build it? You can probably take one of the "X" turret platforms from any of the photoetch sets and cut it to size (afterall, you need to replace those photoetch pieces with a framework...now those pieces won't go to waste).

2. Bridge modifications. This applies to Trumpeter's instructions, page 14. In the lower right hand corner you can see the assembly of the Conning Tower Platform. You need to make modifications to parts A8 and A10. Basically, remove the little feature on the lower/rear corner. In reality, the bulkheads were vertically flat...nothing sticking out (other than voice pipes and of course, the Signalmen's Shelters would attach just forward of this). There was also nothing sticking out to the rear (most drawings/plans of this area are incorrect).

I asked John Roberts about this and he confirmed the shape. BTW- It was he who told me about the Signalmens Shelters in this area (mentioned in a previous post). So, those are definite and confirmed.

In closing, I should also not that these changes will also apply to just about any other model of Hood as sunk. Particularly the Tamiya kit (which has a few more serious errors that Trumpeter has gotten right...the aft splinter shield, After Superstructure, Motorboat Workshop, Enclosed focsle deck/batteries, etc).

I'll post diagrams for these latest changes (as well as the previously mentioned ones) in our upcoming article/list of modifications to the kit.
So far, they are mostly easy modifications.

Frank

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:18 pm 
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Hello,

In case anyone is interested, we have posted an article on the Hood website covering the Trumpeter 1/350 Hood. It contains a listing of observed errors plus offers a number of detailing suggestions. You can find it at http://hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models/tru ... pfixes.htm

We will add to it/expand upon it as new information comes in.

If anyone has any questions, comments or inputs, please feel free to contact me at the Hood site via e-mail or the forum.

Frank

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:03 pm 
I noticed in the rendering by Thomas of the X-frames on X turret, that the dimensions are a bit wrong: the original fram consisted of 8 frames, the center two were removed.

Excellent article! Should come in very handy!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:35 pm 
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Frank,

A really nice article. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do this for others!

Kurt


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:02 pm 
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First, please let me say there has been no ship that has been nearly as much an obsession in my lifetime, as HMS Hood. At a very young age, it captured my interest. Of course as a kid, I didn't have much to go on when it came to technical matters, a problem compounded by a number of difficulties:

a) I was in post-war America, not exactly a hotbed of RN interest;

b) I was too young, both to be aware and to make use of, the scant resources that were available;

c) Much information, even on US Navy subjects, was still restricted. As late as 1968/69, the nearest library with such information, was loathe to allow me access to its reference section, requiring the accompaniment of a parent (itself, a choice limited to my late-working father, as my mother did not drive!);

d)On the very few evenings that I was able to persuade my work-weary father to make the drive into town in time beat the library's closing, the material I could access was strictly controlled and not removable from the premises! I could go on, but you get the picture...

At any rate, Hood and the story of her encounter with Bismarck
eventually made a very successful 8th-grade "show and tell" project for me. Even my airplane-and tank-modeling friends and classmates, wondered how I could be so fixated on as arcane a subject as British warships! In those days, I was probably the only modeler in my county to possess an Airfix HMS Hood, and it was indeed the Hope Diamond of my collection!

As I write this, now nearly four decades later I am sitting in front of a device which, with a few effortless hand movements at nearly any moment I choose, can provide me with tenfold or more the amount of information it took so much effort to acquire back then. To my left, in a corner of this room, lies a pristine Airfix HMS Hood model still in its factory-wrapped container.

In a moment, I will again see on my screen, such detailed information as I could never have once imagined would exist--the specific shape of a gun tub, missing X-frames, details of signalmen's shelters--all this, as far as I can, will be applied when I set about the task of making what will likely be my final Airfix Hood build, one which will easily beat any of its four predecessors.

I just wanted you all to know that I really appreciate what I'm seeing, and more importantly, why....

:thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:21 pm 
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RNfanDan wrote:
First, please let me say there has been no ship that has been nearly as much an obsession in my lifetime, as HMS Hood. At a very young age, it captured my interest. Of course as a kid, I didn't have much to go on when it came to technical matters, a problem compounded by a number of difficulties:

a) I was in post-war America, not exactly a hotbed of RN interest;

b) I was too young, both to be aware and to make use of, the scant resources that were available;

c) Much information, even on US Navy subjects, was still restricted. As late as 1968/69, the nearest library with such information, was loathe to allow me access to its reference section, requiring the accompaniment of a parent (itself, a choice limited to my late-working father, as my mother did not drive!);

d)On the very few evenings that I was able to persuade my work-weary father to make the drive into town in time beat the library's closing, the material I could access was strictly controlled and not removable from the premises! I could go on, but you get the picture...

At any rate, Hood and the story of her encounter with Bismarck
eventually made a very successful 8th-grade "show and tell" project for me. Even my airplane-and tank-modeling friends and classmates, wondered how I could be so fixated on as arcane a subject as British warships! In those days, I was probably the only modeler in my county to possess an Airfix HMS Hood, and it was indeed the Hope Diamond of my collection!

As I write this, now nearly four decades later I am sitting in front of a device which, with a few effortless hand movements at nearly any moment I choose, can provide me with tenfold or more the amount of information it took so much effort to acquire back then. To my left, in a corner of this room, lies a pristine Airfix HMS Hood model still in its factory-wrapped container.

In a moment, I will again see on my screen, such detailed information as I could never have once imagined would exist--the specific shape of a gun tub, missing X-frames, details of signalmen's shelters--all this, as far as I can, will be applied when I set about the task of making what will likely be my final Airfix Hood build, one which will easily beat any of its four predecessors.

I just wanted you all to know that I really appreciate what I'm seeing, and more importantly, why....

:thumbs_up_1:


A man with impeccable taste! Lovely story Dan :thumbs_up_1:

When I was between 10-12 and started getting into warships (this occurred after my grand parents and mother took me on holiday for a week in Portsmouth) Obviously all museums and ships were visited and this sparked the interest. After I got back from the holiday I started sitting in my local library for hours reading Janes (yes even at those tender years!)

The first book I pulled off the shelf though and I'll always remember it, was Raven & Robert British Battleships of WW2, my jaw was on the floor. I went back day after day until I read the whole thing and wished I had the money to buy such a wonderful item. After reading their cruiser volume too and Allied Battleships by Garzke, Dulin, & Webb and just about every other warship book they had in their 'for loan' or 'reference only' sections I was hooked.

About the same age Airfix ships were built on mass until I'd built everything in production at that time. Ohhh happy days! :big_grin:

Since those years I've been able to buy and collect such wonders, and now with modern kits, photo-etch and the internet we are spoilt for choice, thanks for reminding me Dan :eyebrows: . I won't moan about not having plans of certain ship ever again!!!! :lol_pound:

Back to Hood I've built the Airfix kit OOB twice as a kid, one of those was used in a show and tell at school about remembering the war with my family's war medals, I seem to remember one of the masts breaking during transport home! :mad_1: I've also built in the 1990s the the Heller offering before the photo-etch era but sadly gave it away to a child when I moved house.

In the future my Trumpeter kit shall be tackled with WEM photo-etch set, think I'm swaying to buying the Lionroar set also and possibly WEM's pom-poms, though I'm still in 2 minds whether I prefer Lionroars or WEM's/Forth's turrets..... you see this again proves we've never had it so good :big_grin:


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