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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 3:13 am 
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Hello All,

Hi Richard, thanks for that info, I would imagine that most major naval bases had supplies of the major paints required by vessels.

I've re read the post Bismarck reports, to remove the 15 inch shell lodged in the SPS space a hole was cut in the ships double bottom and the shell lowered onto a waiting bomb trolley (I'm sure I have the shell examination report from Crombie).

Obviously this would require replating and would necessitate re painting, images of hull damage show some marine growth, but definitely a hull composition lighter than the boot topping, as you say, Rosyth, we may assume, would have repainted using the existing MacArthurs.

With MacArthur's available at Singapore, it would likely have been used if touch up, or re applications were done?

I have a copy of the loss report, and the Bucknill Committee report, so far no mention of dry docking but I'm not expecting much from those two documents.

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:32 am 
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Hi All,

As an update, I have found further anecdotal pieces of evidence as to the hull of Repulse, one from Battleship by Middlebrooke and Mahoney page 243, "the bows hanging in the air, glistening and showing the red painted hull" this is from the authors.

Another from Richard Pool from Course for Disaster, page 67, his escape from the ship "I must have swum for about three or four minutes before turning on my back to see what was happening to the ship. I was just in time to see the last of her. About 60 feet of Repulse's bow sticking out of the water, the sun glistening on her light grey topside and on her red anti fouling bottom"

Page 253 of the book Hunting of Force Z has mention of Repulse's "scarlet bottom"

For Prince of Wales, there is only one record of hull colour I've found, again Hunting Force Z the author mentions PoW turning over "and concealing her wounds beneath her great red belly".

Again this is from an author not an eye witness, from eye witnesses we have Brooke and the brown colour, three other witnesses in Battleship by Middlebrooke and Mahoney mention sliding on her hull, her sides "thick with oil". One survivor talks of walking on PoW's bottom noticing "how clean it looked" the last time he had seen her bottom being at her launch in 1939.

In Hostages to Fortune on page 54 it mentions PoW starting "long overdue boiler cleaning and went into dock to have her bottom cleaned", this could be a second source, or it may be a reference to what Brooke wrote, however in the appendix at the back of the book it lists messages sent by the C in C Eastern Fleet Tom Phillips, one dated 03/12/41 mentions that "it has been necessary to put in hand retubing of distiller of HMS Prince of Wales today 3rd December" which was in response to Admiralty calls to get the ships away from Singapore.

Hostages to Fortune is an excellent well researched book, and takes information from official sources, it seems PoW could have been taken into dock on the 3rd Dec and that her boilers were cleaned, distiller worked on, and her bottom was scraped.

Therefore with Richards research and note that Singapore held MacArthurs paints, it would seem PoW most probably would have retained a grey hull, all be it cleaned and scraped, at her loss, multiple eye witnesses state an oil covered hull which may explain the description of a brownish colour.

As always it is only a best guess, opinions are very welcomed!

Hope this at least helps a little bit,
Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:00 am 
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Notwithstanding the interest in PoW's bottom colour, it now appears, according to Cag's last post, that the Admiralty actually did try to get the ships away from Singapore! They were then "caught" by the Japanese invasion. There was then no turning back but even then the sinking was not inevitable.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:07 am 
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Hi All,

Hi 81542, I think there were two messages that suggested trying to get the ships to sea, even if that meant Phillips, who was travelling to see Admiral Hart in Manila, was not aboard.

Unfortunately this backfired, when Japanese convoys were spotted heading toward Siam and Malaya Repulse and Vampire and Tenedos were en route to Darwin, Prince of Wales was in dock, and Phillips was in Manila talking to Admiral Hart.

Repulse was recalled and Phillips flew back to Singapore, but by that time any chance of a preemptive sweep was lost. It seems the British were not willing to act first, even Operation Matador, the move into Siam with troops to deny an enemy strategic areas, was rejected for fear of being seen as the aggressor.

The whole history behind the selection of ships, their types etc for the Eastern Fleet and what they were meant to do is a long and tortuous one!

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:33 am 
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Just to follow up on the antifouling paints:

DoY was red throughout, correct? (using latest available research)? Particular point of interest is 1943 North Cape times.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:07 am 
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Are there any pictures out there on the interwebs that would show some detail of the upper masts? Preferably Prince of Wales or early war King George V.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:05 am 
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I went back over KGV CASF thread to try and understand the fire control situation for Prince of Wales in Denmark Straight fit (with UP launchers in lieu of turret pompoms). I know it has been hashed over before but to summarize:
- Centerline fore/aft pompom directors: NO, which makes Flyhawk’s instructions incorrect.
- Tubs for said pompom directors: YES (they seem to be present in a couple photographs, although quality/perspective is not ideal).
- ‘UP sights’ are in the aforementioned director tubs, however no good pictures of them exist (?!) and the best reference is a verbal description. They are depicted as what look like little poles in the King George V ‘as fitted’ profile drawing.

Does that pretty much sum it up?

I Included the best pictures I could find. In the aft view I am not sure what the item is that appears to be just aft of the director tub (second arrow).
Any chance that Flyhawk’s Hood kit did a better job of representing the UP sights? I couldn’t find anything obvious in online picture searches.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:52 am 
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Sounds about right as far as I know. The only reference to the UP sights I've ever come across is the one I posted several pages back. And without anything else, I'm not sure how we could say that any one interpretation is 'better' than another.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:16 pm 
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Martocticvs

Would you mind stating the page number on which you posted your reference to the UP sights?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:25 pm 
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81542 wrote:
Martocticvs

Would you mind stating the page number on which you posted your reference to the UP sights?

81542


viewtopic.php?p=717609#p717609

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:52 pm 
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Martocticvs and David P,

Thank you for the information. I vaguely recall reading the same description somewhere in a publication that I could not remember the details of. I did not wish to burden this website with vagueness, so I thought I'd ask.

There was a variety of rocket barrage weapons introduced into British service during WW2 including one that became known as "Pig Trough." A potentially interesting book on such matters is "The Secret War 1939 - 45" by one Gerald Pawle. Sadly, I can find little in it as regards the UP system fitted in some major British warships in 1940 - 41. There will no doubt be a handbook sculling around somewhere with details in it though.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:16 am 
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Hi All,

Hi JC_4130, the item you pointed out sitting just aft of the pom pom director tub is a secondary stern navigation light, there is another situated on the stern flagstaff mount and were illuminated compass indicators for want of a better description!

There was "something" in the pom pom director tubs and as others have pointed out this may well have been a UP director.

There is anecdotal evidence from the Middlebrook and Mahoney book Battleship that at her sinking a twin Lewis gun was placed in the aft platform, but again the real answer is we can only guess, I am trying to find out as much as possible but it is a big job to try and find the relevant information from the archives, finding the correct file, especially because a lot of those files actually no longer exist, the RN did a lot of "weeding" throwing away a lot of what was considered redundant documents.

Hope that helps a wee bit
Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:33 am 
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Cag wrote:
There is anecdotal evidence from the Middlebrook and Mahoney book Battleship that at her sinking a twin Lewis gun was placed in the aft platform ....


FWIW, see https://www.britishpathe.com/asset/stills/90441/ at 1:49 to 1:53

Cag wrote:
the item you pointed out sitting just aft of the pom pom director tub is a secondary stern navigation light, there is another situated on the stern flagstaff mount and were illuminated compass indicators for want of a better description!


foglight.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:59 am 
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Cag wrote:
There was "something" in the pom pom director tubs and as others have pointed out this may well have been a UP director.


The King George V as fitted drawings explicitly call out "UP sights" in those tubs that would eventually contain the additional pompom directors, and I assume POW was the same. The drawing represents them as featureless poles, which I suspect is a placeholder.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:35 pm 
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Hi All

Hi JC_4130, I'm not sure but I have all her builders plans etc and I'll take a look and let you know.

Hi EJ, thanks, probably a better description!

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 3:10 pm 
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Hi All,

I've taken a look at the plans for the Prince of Wales and the fwd pom pom director tub has a pom pom director drawn in it, the aft one is blank but has a notation pom pom director next to it.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, I'll take a look at other documents I have and the images I have in case I've missed something.

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:01 am 
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Cag wrote:
Hi All,

I've taken a look at the plans for the Prince of Wales and the fwd pom pom director tub has a pom pom director drawn in it, the aft one is blank but has a notation pom pom director next to it.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, I'll take a look at other documents I have and the images I have in case I've missed something.

Best wishes
Cag.


Interesting, definitely not the same as the KGV drawing. This was with UP launchers on the turrets?

In the overhead picture posted above there is clearly something in the forward director position, but it does not look like another pompom director to me. I would love to find a better resolution of that picture...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:55 am 
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JC_4130

I agree with you. Looking at the photograph that you mentioned and a couple of others that I've seen; taken of HMS's KING GEORGE V and PRINCE OF WALES while they were fitted with the UP weapon system, it appears to me that two of what might have been UP sights were fitted in the after position and one in the forward one. However, all the images were distant shots and/or had the equipments covered over.

One is unlikely, in my opinion, to find any images of the sights actually fitted onboard the ships as there can't have been any reason to have photographs taken of them unless they were part of a background. High and close up? Possible but I don't think so.

Perhaps we need to trawl for images of other ships that were fitted with the system but let's face it, there weren't that many and again the image is only likely to by part of a background. One might be fortunate though.

Personally, I feel that someone needs to carry out research in one of the less obvious archives or facilities. Beginning with the UP mounting itself would be a good start. That might then lead one on to an image of the sight. However, it is likely to be looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:28 am 
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Hi All,

Hi JC_4130, on the profile plan the turret tops are blank, however they do have a small cross with the notation UP mount on B and Y turrets.

I was lucky enough to visit the Imperial War museum photo archive a long time ago and purchase prints of all of the images of Prince of Wales, also a couple of her fitting out at Cammell Lairds and Rosyth. Luckily these are available on line nowadays to download for free, unfortunately I can't see anything specific, radars etc were fitted at Rosyth so it's images of her after her arrival at Scapa that may show anything.

Having taken a look all these show are, in the fwd tub a small object in the centre of the tub that looks to be covered in a protective tarpaulin, so not much help at all, and a voice pipe that is fitted down the back of the tub and down the support.

Aft is a similar disappointment, no clear image or if clear is obstructed by other objects like the fogtlight. I have two good images of KGV's rear tub but again whatever is there is tarpaulin covered.

I have the "as fitted" particulars of both KGV and PoW, as these were the only two ships fitted with UP projectors, but it only references the usual particulars, ie horsepower, guns, etc etc and so is of no help.

I will ask a camouflage group colleague if there's anything in the lists that tells us anything but I'm not sure they are that detailed. Obviously a Rosyth fitment or job record would be perfect but finding those records may be finding like the proverbial needle, if they still exist.

I have recently undertaken teaching myself ballistics and trajectories to calculate PoW gunnery at Denmark Strait, the 14 inch gun had, like all guns, a 'range table' interpolated from practice firings of the trial guns to give error data at all ranges.

In my world this document should be simple to find surely? Unfortunately not, and only the plea to a very knowledgeable and kind gentleman helped me aquire a copy, the Royal Navy Museum Portsmouth only had the 0.5 inch table, and the National Archives pointed me to the Admiralty Fleet Orders of which there are hundreds of volumes, some of which are missing.

I will continue the search, if I find anything new I'll post it here, but it may take some time and a lot of searching!

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:28 pm 
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They were also carried by HMS Nelson in 1940, so there might be another avenue to explore there.

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