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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:34 pm 
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This has probably been discussed before but... for the May '41 paint scheme, is the dark gray of the turret roof carried down a short distance on the vertical sides? I think it's an illusion caused by the change in angle on the turret side - but I have seen some models painted this way (or maybe the model photos are also misleading for the same reason!)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:51 pm 
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I would agree that it is probably an illusion. The edges of the turret roof were perpendicular (?), the sides were slightly angled out towards the bottom.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:07 pm 
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Definitely doesn't extend down the sides of the turrets at all. The top armour plate was cut simply, so had vertical sides, not following the angle of the rest of the turret, so it's just an effect of light and shadow.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:22 am 
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Not sure if this is the right forum to ask but.. for anyone who built the Deluxe Flyhawk kit (especially the Denmark Straight version). For the turrets, did you paint before or after gluing on the railings? They are especially sensitive because there is no continuous lower edge. For the Denmark Straight fit, which has the added shields for the UP launchers, it seems like a masking nightmare to paint after assembly.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:51 pm 
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Watching Russian warships today operate in black sea with everything shiny painted over grey (except things like admirals boat etc) I think lots of discussion whether booms or crests were painted or not to me at least come in new light. I am pretty sure now that it is more accurate to paint things ship color if ship is modelled at war. FWIW as they say..

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 1:15 am 
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Assume many of you have seen this painting, and it may have already be posted earlier in thread, but this page also shows some close-ups............................so just in case;

https://www.josephreindler.com/hms-hood ... e-of-wales

Below a close up of PoW from the painting.


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PoW from Hood painting by Joseph Reindler.jpg
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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 12:33 pm 
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Apparently a new book re KGV's. Only read reports from a couple of readers but mostly are positive, if not necessarily five stars; with the caveat that nothing really new. Still, for KGV fiends / fans, well, probably another book to buy. :wave_1:

Amz blurb - "Following the First World War the major naval powers entered into an agreement restricting the construction of capital ships and limiting the numbers that signatories were allowed to maintain, so numerous ships were scrapped or disposed of and the majority of planned vessel were either cancelled whilst being built or never laid down. By the late 1920s the Royal Navy’s battle force comprised of the two Nelson-class ships, the battlecruisers ‘Hood’, ‘Renown’ and ‘Repulse’, and ‘Revenge’ and Queen Elizabeth-class ships, all designed before the First World War. In 1928 the Royal Navy began planning a new class of battleships which was put on hold with the signing of the Treaty of London. In 1935, realising its battle fleet was becoming dated as other nations laid down new classes of battleships, the Royal Navy recommenced planning capital ships within treaty limitations. The result was the King George V-class battleships. Regarded by some as the worst new-generation battleships in the Second World War the King George V-class were Britain’s most modern battleships during the conflict and saw action in some of the most famous engagements from the sinking of the ‘Bismarck’ in 1941 to the surrender of Japan in 1945. This book charts the story of the King George V-class from its conception and design through to the operational history of the ships in the class."


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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 10:51 am 
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For those with an interest in the colour of the lower hull of the KGV Class battleship HMS Prince of Wales, I have consulted the Ships’ Covers for the KGV Class held by the NMM. A note states that MacArthur’s composition was designated to be used on the bottom of HMS Prince of Wales. MacArthur’s anti fouling composition came in black or grey. The lower hull of HMS Prince of Wales is visible in photos of her in drydock after the Bismarck action and when sinking. These show that her lower hull was lighter than (the black of) her boot topping indicating that her bottom was grey.

The shades of grey (and red) anti fouling compositions used by the RN in WW2 varied according to the different manufacturers. Photos seem to show that MacArthur’s grey anti fouling might have been very slightly lighter than Home Fleet grey.


Last edited by dick on Mon May 23, 2022 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:02 pm 
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Thanks, Dick. Much appreciated.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 3:05 am 
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81542 wrote:
Thanks, Dick. Much appreciated.

81542


+1 to that.

Nice to 'complete the set' of the full five King George V Classes underwater hull colours.


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 4:10 am 
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dick wrote:
For those with an interest in the colour of the lower hull of the KGV Class battleship HMS Prince of Wales, I have consulted the Ships’ Covers for the KGV Class held by the NMM. A note states that MacArthur’s composition was designated to be used on the bottom of HMS Prince Wales. MacArthur’s anti fouling composition came in black or grey. The lower hull of HMS Prince of Wales is visible in photos of her in drydock after the Bismarck action and when sinking. These show that her lower hull was lighter than (the black of) her boot topping indicating that her bottom was grey.

The shades of grey (and red) anti fouling compositions used by the RN in WW2 varied according to the different manufacturers. Photos seem to show that MacArthur’s grey anti fouling might have been very slightly lighter than Home Fleet grey.

So that must have been more or less the same colour as HMS Hood's lower hull!

I have redone Hood already, my KGV '41 is next to get a repaint...

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2022 2:54 am 
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Fascinating, thanks! Is it thought that she had a grey bottom at time of sinking now then? I thought there were eye-witness reports describing it variously as red or brown.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 9:48 am 
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Hello All,

Hello Martocticvs, could it be possible that the large amounts of oil fuel in the water and covering the hull may have caused it to appear as reddish brown to those watching it?

My uncle was aboard and apart from action wounds one of the main problems he and many others faced from both ships was fuel oil ingestion.

Its a thought, brown fuel oil on a grey hull?

Best wishes
Sean.


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 7:38 pm 
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Martocticvs wrote:
Fascinating, thanks! Is it thought that she had a grey bottom at time of sinking now then? I thought there were eye-witness reports describing it variously as red or brown.


Could she have had grey post Bismarck, and repainted Brown-red as witnessed in reports when sunk?

I really dont know, this is such a curious topic. I will repaint happily, just curious if in 4 months a new post shows up saying it was red after all ... Im not repainting twice. :heh:

Yet, very welcome findings! Thanks to those doing the searching for us on such a niche niche topic.

My eyes still cant imagine a ship with grey bottom, black boot topping, and grey top. Just feels unnatural given what one is used to seeing.

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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 3:16 am 
Notwithstanding Dick's excellent post of 22 May, which stated that MacArthur's composition was the [u]designated[u] bottom coating for HMS PRINCE OF WALES and thus either grey or black, those now querying the colour of the bottom on sinking do not seem to be aware that the ship was dry-docked in Singapore/Sembawang (spelling ?) Naval Base shortly before she was lost. Ergo, the eye-witnesses who reported the bottom colour as being "red-brown" when she sank are likely to have been right! One can do an awful lot with a ship's bottom in the (reported) four days that she was docked; which may have included a re-coating, especially in war-time. One is therefore now left with the puzzle as to which time period to depict the ship when painting one's model!


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 1:40 pm 
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I quite understand the problem getting one’s mind around the idea that many RN hull bottoms in WW2 were grey! If it helps, here is an August 1916 Fleet Order showing that the Admiralty’s official preference became for grey at that time. I have not (so far at any rate) found any subsequent order cancelling this order.
Attachment:
AFO 1972 1916.jpg
AFO 1972 1916.jpg [ 63.37 KiB | Viewed 7746 times ]


Re “reports” of red or brown or red-brown in relation to HMS Prince of Wales & HMS Repulse on 10th December 1941, it would be helpful if any such references could be cited so we can see how many reports there actually were and how accurate they might be.

These are the ones I have come across:

On page 133 of Arthur Nicholson’s book ‘Hostages to Fortune’ eye-witness Lt Cdr Buckley reports seeing the “clean red hull” of HMS Repulse as she turned over and sank. Given that her last docking looks like it was mid July - mid August her bottom was unlikely to have been clean.

On pages 108-109 of Geoffrey Brooke’s personal account of his time on HMS Prince of Wales in his book ‘Alarm Starboard’:
“….The great battleship continued to roll slowly away; as her upperworks dwindled and then vanished, the grey paint on her hull changed to brown as the dividing black line of her boot-topping rose out of the water, and the men at the guardrails began to climb over and slide down this treacherous slope…..The ship was now nearly bottom up with the main keel rolling, if more gently…..she then came to a standstill, a 700-foot waterlogged cylinder of brown, the forefoot higher than the stern….”

Earlier, on page 93, he wrote that on 7th December whilst at Singapore “The Prince of Wales had been moved into dry dock for a quick scrape of her bottom…to remove speed-reducing weed….”

(It is unclear from Brooke’s account exactly how many of the six days that Prince of Wales was at Singapore she was in dry dock, but it reads like she did not enter dry dock immediately and was out of it immediately news of Japanese attacks was received on the morning of the 8th.)

It is always tricky to decide what weighting to give to eye-witness accounts concerning colour written decades after the event, but in this case we know that the upper hull of HMS Prince of Wales was not uniformly grey.

Another account re Prince of Wales, by Telegraphist C V House on page 249 of Middlebrook’s book ‘Battleship: The Loss of the Prince of Wales and Repulse’, reads: “The ship was at an angle of about 45 degrees, the sides thick with oil”. (House was sitting on the armoured plating on the hull side where it jutted out and was referring to the hull below him ie the lower hull.)

My hunch is that the "brown" Brooke remembered on the lower hull was one or other of, or a mixture of both, areas of rust exposed by the “quick scrape” at Singapore and patches of fuel oil. From her movements it looks as if Prince of Wales would not have had the opportunity for a proper docking and full repaint of her lower hull since completing her repairs mid July so her bottom was probably in quite a state.

In principle a ship should not have changed the type/brand of composition used on her bottom. But sometimes changes did of course take place. If a ship had a long life, this might happen perhaps at times of major rebuilds when the hull could be properly scraped and wire-brushed back to bare metal and then retreated, or during WW2 if the allocated brand of paint was not available and a chemically compatible alternative brand was. However every effort was made to get it right, and the records show surprising degrees of continuity, especially with the major ships. All the other KGV Class battleships remained in their original bottom compositions throughout the war until late 1945 when, whilst docked in Australia, a local Australian composition was briefly used on some of them. (KGV: grey Moravia during the war, grey Majors (Australian) November 1945 to June 1947, then back to grey Moravia, then into the new red POCOPTIC composition in November 1948 and until scrapped; DoY: red Clarks during the war, short period in grey Majors April - November 1946, then back to red Clarks, then red POCOPTIC September 1949 and until scrapped; Anson: red British until July 1945, then grey Majors until September 1947, then red Red Hand until red POCOPTIC in March 1949 and until scrapped; Howe: red Red Hand throughout until red POCOTIC in July 1948 and until scrapped.)

There really is no reason to suspect that during Prince of Wales’ very brief life she would have changed the composition used on her bottom ie whilst being repaired at Rosyth after the Bismarck action. In any case none of the authorised WW2-era Admiralty Quality anti fouling paints listed in the contemporary Rate Book was brown. Nor could the “brown” have been the MacArthur’s protective paints, two coats of which would have been applied under the outer/final anti fouling coat, showing through when she sank as they also only came in grey or black like MacArthur’s anti fouling.


Last edited by dick on Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 7:15 am 
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Hi All,

Unfortunately the ships books and the ships logs for Prince of Wales for November and December 41 are lost. I do have her existing logs up to October 41.

Richard is correct, the last time PoW was in dock previous to Singapore was post Bismarck, there is obvious mention of painting in her log, but this would be application of Camo, if her hull was scraped and composition applied, as Richard has stated a home port would apply the manufacturer specified.

The only reference we have as to the docking in Singapore so far is, as Richard suggests, in Geoffrey Brookes book, but I'm still hunting for any other reference, PoW sailed on the 8th with two of her boilers still unconnected after cleaning, this was as can be imagined all quite rushed due to the prevailing circumstances.

Brooke is quite specific in his wording, a scrape of weed, but again this is all we have, survivors memory of hull scrapes, brown hulls, etc. Richards work has allowed us another glimpse of the history of these ships, I've no doubt PoW had a grey hull like Hood at Denmark Strait, I would be pretty happy to say at the Atlantic Charter, the Mediterranean Halberd convoy and the trip out to Singapore her hull was grey.

And perhaps until we can find any other corroborating evidence as to what exactly went on at Singapore, we must leave her hull colour to opinion. For me Singapore was a major RN base and I've not found any evidence so far that the supplies of materials to Singapore were short.

But again this is very much an unknown, I'll keep digging, I've three more biographies to check and some recordings from the IWM. I do intend to see the Richard Wildish papers, PoW's damage control officer and a magnetic hull survey report carried out on PoW, I'm not convinced they will hold anything new, but I'll still see them as part of a greater research project.

If I find anything new I will obviously let you all know.

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 11:21 am 
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Cag,

PM

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 5:06 pm 
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Hi All,

Hi 81542, thank you, I'll read and reply,

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2022 1:31 am 
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Cag wrote:

For me Singapore was a major RN base and I've not found any evidence so far that the supplies of materials to Singapore were short.



MacArthur's bottom compositions were available at Singapore in December 1941.


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