The Ship Model Forum

Hi All,

Hi Martocticvs, yes that's a good point, Norfolk etc also carried UP's so worth a look.

PoW was to carry a fourth UP at the stern like KGV, but as you probably know a single 40mm Bofors was fitted instead. Now I do know this had a Kerrison sight fitted (basically a fire control box on top of a pole or tripod) behind the gun mount. Luckily there are shots of PoW Y turret taken from the area of the 40mm and we see the Kerrison sight in these images.

Later PoW had a quad pom pom on Y turret controlled by her Marine Captain (Captain Aylwin) and her B turret mount had its own gun Captain. My uncle served on S1 pom pom which was controlled by one of the 4 pom pom directors situated on the bridge.

I'm still researching this but I presume the system was interchangeable and that the fwd and aft pom poms could be controlled by one of the four Bridge directors using a switch over method.

But as I say it's all research required, RPC was never fitted to PoW as such (I presume it was a magslip transmission type "follow the pointer") I've got some details but it all needs correlation.

I'm due a visit to Kew, so I'll see what is on line about the UP, I know the great Hood Association website has material on exactly which ships had UP's fitted which may help, I'll take a look later.

Best wishes
Cag.

Hi All,

Yes on the Hood Association website there is an official documents page and data on ships fitted with UPs is there, it is Adm 1/23040.

Best wishes
Cag.

This might help?


I have a number of books in pdf format about Hood and the KGV/KGV class in various languages (English, Russian, Polish) they might contain drawings/photos/info on what you seek

Ah indeed it is. I've been looking at 3.7" AA predictors (army) and these are usually either Sperry or Vickers but this is a match, thanks.

That drawing certainly helps locating the UP directors! Thanks. Do you have more of these?

_________________
"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

The books I had might contain. PM me and I upload them to google drive.
The top view of this particular drawing I've posted seems missing from my files. Will check Hood's.

Of the Hood, this is the best drawing I've got, apart from the one in the older book: Anatomy of the Ship the Battlecruiser Hood.
https://i.imgur.com/2EVuKNp.jpg

Do you have the equivalent deck plans by any chance and if so, how do they depict the UP sights?

Sadly no. I think I saved this from a Russian forum but the top view had a resolution like 1/4th of this hence I did not save it

Hi All,

Hi EJ, you're welcome, yes it's called a 'sight' but is in fact a prediction unit, took me a while to find it!

Hi TZoli, thank you for those, interestingly the PoW plans do not show a UP sight, the fwd tub shows a pom pom director, the aft tub has nothing, only a notation that a pom pom director should be there. However PoW had UP's fitted so further investigation is needed!

I've managed to find in my stash of papers an Admiralty list of sights, binoculars and transmitting and receiving units (follow the pointer etc) which I will work through later, it's rather large so may take some time.

Hi FrancisMCN, if the KGV plans follow the PoW ones, you're looking for the Bridges plan as this includes the HACS tower areas and associated structures.

Best wishes
Cag.

Maybe not on the PoW plan, but on the KGV plan there is a clear indication of 'UP & E Sights'. Look for yourself.
And in the foretop, between the HACS as well:
Now the description of the sighting device reads like this: '... Mounted on the top of the six foot fence post were the butts of two double-barrelled shotguns, each complete with twin triggers and set shoulder-width apart. Between the butts was an open ring-sight fixed at an elevation of seventy degrees. Sight and gun could be trained from beam to beam, the movement being transmitted to the weapon which followed the sight. Each of the four triggers fired twelve rockets...'

It would be great if someone could find a picture of this contraption... This apparatus below comes close, but the 'shotgun butts' have already been replaced with the shoulder butts we know of many later USN directors, like the Mk. 41 and Mk 57, or the Swiss Oerlikon 20mm machine gun.

_________________
"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Hi All,

Hi Maarten, please don't think I was doubting TZoli or the plans, as I said it was just interesting that these plans of the 1936 build year ships are significantly different, both ships have UP mounts fitted yet one plan shows UP sights and the other pom pom directors.

Thanks for the description of the sight, sounds a heath Robinson arrangement!

Hope this clears things up.

Best wishes
Cag.

Such differences between sister ships are not uncommon.

Sister ships, not twins!

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Ex RCN, HMC Ships Gatineau, Athabaskan, Charlottetown, St. John's, Montreal, Charlottetown, Summerside, Montreal.

True, but I'm learning that discrepancies in official plans are not unheard of either!

In any event I am going to be sad if it turns out that there are pompom directors in those positions, because I managed to destroy all but 4 of my Micro Master 3D printed directors.

Hi All,

Hi JC_4130, yes I could write a list of actual physical differences between KGV and PoW from bow to stern.

But you're correct, things on plans that you would think would be similar like UP sights for UP mounts not pom pom directors, are different, the obvious differences like vent positions etc are normal, but we live and learn.

I've checked the sight files and unfortunately there's no UP sight info, it is training and elevation receivers and sights binoculars etc etc for main secondary and close range weapons. Interestingly also the 7 inch UP weapon aka Naval Wire Barrage, was a 20 barrelled weapon, the above description of the sight gives a twin shot of 12?

I'm guessing the sight system was the same for all weapons, what time period are you depicting the ship?

Sorry if I've missed a previous post and you've already stated that, I might be able to dig out some KGV pics, but I'm sure the forward tub either had a UP sight, or later it had the 273 fitted. I can check the aft tub when I'm back home from working away.

Best wishes
Cag.

Hi All,

Having thought about this a bit, it has intrigued me a little more, and I'm hoping someone can confirm/clarify my thoughts.

If you visit the superb site "on the slipway" by EJ Foeth you will see representations of what I'm about to describe. This description is very basic so please excuse its simplicity.

I'll take KGV as an example but it would fit any warship structure, we have five parts, a lookout, a sight, a director, a fire control table, and a gun mount. The lookout is an individual with binoculars and a basic bearing/elevation indication who verbally indicates direction, they have no provision to fire a gun mount.

Next is the sight, a much larger instrument, be that a Captains sight, a target bearing indicator, a searchlight or an air defence operator sight, again operated by an individual but it has the capability to transmit electrically a bearing and an elevation, but no provision to fire a gun.

This relay of information is eventually passed to a director, a much larger device which has a crew that includes a layer, a trainer and a rangefinder operator amongst others. In the case of KGV the main armament DCT and the 5.25 HACP directors do have the provision to fire the armament, the pom pom director I'm pretty sure does not. However the directors can control the armament via relay of information through a fire control table.

This receives the director info, calculates motion and other numerous errors and transmits this fire solution to the gun mount. The fire control table also has a provision to fire the guns.

Again the gun mount has a crew including a layer and trainer who, under director control, look at a receiver dial which has a red pointer that shows the transmitted target bearing and elevation. The trainer and layer use their hand controls to line up a black gun mounting pointer to the red one to lay the gun on target. The mount also has sights for individual control and of course provision to fire the gun.

Now on the official plan we see KGV has a UP & E sight and a description of barrel butts, a vane sight and triggers to control and fire the weapon. Consequently we need further research as to

a) how a simple sight has become a director?
b) what transmission system was attached to the sight post?
c) how an apparently rudimentry small sight does the same job as its much larger counterpart, yet can also fire the gun mount?
d) how the control and trigger system works?
e) how four triggers each firing twelve rockets (ie either 12, 24, 36 or 48 rocket salvo) equates to a ship borne 20 rocket mount?

We need further research to ascertain if it was simply a sight or a director, if it was a sight how its transmission operated, ie transmitter/receiver or simple voice pipe direction, and if the mount followed this sight direction until the mount operator took control or if the mount operator had no control whatsoever.

More to this than meets the eye

Best wishes
Cag.

a) The official plans of PoW do not show any UP sight, while the launchers are depicted. The plans are too detailed to suggest the sight was present but simply omitted on the plans (even reading lamps are indicated...)
b) The land-based UP launchers fire 2 or 36 rockets, perhaps the sight is meant for this launcher? (Tonsil system is again 20 rockets but seems to have its own sight).
c) If the triggering system is so simple, was it perhaps transferred to the HACS directors. (no pompom directors where fitted in the bridge top/aft DCT positions and the rest of the bridge equipment seems the same as for other ships). Anyway, the launchers can be manned so why would they need a separate sight at all?

That drawing is the source of Trumpeter's 1/200 scale funnel dimensions error. It's the one which (incorrectly) shows the aft funnel narrower (fore and aft direction) than the forward funnel.

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
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