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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:11 am 
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Hi Everyone,

Hi Kevin, it's no pain, it may be my explanation that is in error.

Thanks for reposting the two images that helps a lot. I'm afraid my copy was purchased under private use so I'm not quite sure what copyright I'd breach!

If you look at the top image you see a small boat on the boat deck covered with a light covered tarp. Pascalemod has added a green highlight. Below this is a red highlight that surrounds what looks like a very similar light tarp covered boat shaped object.

In the bottom image, which is like my copy, this boat shaped object is absent. Its placed on the upper deck, perhaps when I say behind maybe I should say abaft P4 mounting, that is probably more my error, again sorry, I hope that's a bit clearer.

Hi Pascalemod, well the thing is these were working ships so they stowed boats where convenient, as our guest says even on the catapult deck, but this is good, as dependant on when you depict your ship any placement is possible, well within reason, as a 45 foot boat on the quarterdeck is probably wrong!

Hi Guest, I'm sorry to keep calling you that as it's a bit impersonal, thank you for the advice, I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind, but my problems are twofold,

one all of my research was done under private use rules, there were no thoughts of any type of publication, so a lot of copyright would need to be sought from a lot of archives!

And two,

as you can tell by my posts I'm not the greatest at explaining things!

Great authors like Friedman, Garzke Duhlin and Jurens, or my go to Raven and Roberts give great info in a interesting manner. I'd be happy to even achieve something halfway as interesting but I'm sure I never could.

Antonio Bonomi and his work on the excellent Tirpitz books are a great read, but private papers are very very good too, authors like Sean Waddingham and Dr Paul Cadogan spring to mind on the Denmark Strait battle in particular, and again I'm not sure that I could ever write something that holds someone's interest like that.

I've visited the archives in the Wirral, the Vickers Archives, the Churchill and IWM archives and the National Archives in Kew, I've got the tender sheets and the works build diary for the PoW.

Years ago I did have an idea of a full history with Haynes style sketches as I'm not bad with a pencil, as long as there is an eraser on the end! But then Haynes did the Dreadnought etc and beat me to it! Plus I'm not sure if anyone has the money to even print the size of book I'd end up with never mind buy one!

I'm working on the Denmark Strait battle at present due to various reasons which I wont go into, so my head is full of technical reports and 1st Sea Lords papers!

Thank you very much for the advice, I agree PoW does sometimes get a raw deal.

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:42 am 
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Cag - I posted the original below the edited version. The highlighted in red with green arrow - thats just the same image, I didnt do a good job to "box it properly" but there is like some bizzare confusion it created it seems. :no_2: :mrgreen:

So - There is ONE boat thats covered in that image that confused me, one boat that was shorter than 45ft, one boat thats covered in light canvas. Only one. And I just simply made a duplicate of that area I wanted to draw my attention to. A poor choice of colors and wording and we are chasing our own tail here. :doh_1: :doh_1: :doh_1:

Thus - to clear that image up once and for all, here is what I should have done had I bothered to put a little more effort into it. I have also reuploaded that to original post so that its not confusing anyone any longer.

Attachment:
File comment: THIS IS HOW THE IMAGE SHOULD HAVE LOOKED LIKE.
lKcuRN3mdd.jpg
lKcuRN3mdd.jpg [ 203.73 KiB | Viewed 701 times ]



And here is that ladder everyone talks about behind the P4, in full glory.
Attachment:
large_000000 (20).jpg
large_000000 (20).jpg [ 84.28 KiB | Viewed 701 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:14 am 
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Thanks gents. :thumbs_up_1: I may be getting old and not have the memory I once had, but I am glad I am not loosing the plot completely (well not yet anyway). It never surprises me any longer though how the written word - and photos - can be unintentionally (mis)interpreted time and time again. And not just here on this forum by any means!

Anyway, :thanks: for bearing with me and the time I have wasted having you both confirm what I 'thought' may have been the case from the get-go. :huh:

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:20 am 
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Hi All,

Hi Pascalemod, thanks, I think perhaps my explanations were more in error than your images but that's perfect, thanks!

Hi Kevin, yes image interpretation is a devil, but it's no problem and theres no wasting of time, as I say my wording was no doubt a contributing factor, I wish I could get to grips with posting images!

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:03 am 
Cag,

I know that this should be a PM but thanks for the reply in your post of 5.11am. I am sorry to have offered unsolicited advice but grateful for the information. Opinion: do look into the book again. I am sure that there is someone on the editorial staff of "Seaforth" who can offer advice on copyright of content that one wants to put into a manuscript.

Best Wishes.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:12 pm 
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Thanks for the help gents. I went with unpainted deck for April 1941 PoW build, and boats at that point will be a little better to make, closer to plans.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:03 am 
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pascalemod wrote:
Thanks for the help gents. I went with unpainted deck for April 1941 PoW build, and boats at that point will be a little better to make, closer to plans.

NIIiiiiCE!!!

:good_job: :woo_hoo:

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:17 am 
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Hi All,

Hello Guest, any advice is always welcome, and it's always a pleasure to chat about ships! Yes maybe I'll have another look at some kind of article, or at least a paper, maybe a collaboration may work? Who knows but your advice and encouragement is much appreciated, thank you.

Hi Pascalemod I echo Kevin's sentiments, a beautiful looking model indeed.

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:07 pm 
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Cag wrote:
Hi All,

Hello Guest, any advice is always welcome, and it's always a pleasure to chat about ships! Yes maybe I'll have another look at some kind of article, or at least a paper, maybe a collaboration may work? Who knows but your advice and encouragement is much appreciated, thank you.

Hi Pascalemod I echo Kevin's sentiments, a beautiful looking model indeed.

Best wishes
Cag.


if you do a book for it and want a model for it - Im happy to take pics for you of mine :D. And id buy your book on PoW.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:48 am 
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A short snippet of colour footage of H.M.S. Anson from 1946 showing the late war / early post war dark hull light grey superstructure colour scheme:

https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675036524_Allied-forces-in-Japan_British-battleship-HMS-Anson-anchored-in-breakwater_Kobe-Harbor_World-War-II


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:32 am 
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An interesting video of Howe.

Shows that the booms are painted grey like the superstructure.

Of course it got me thinking was that also in early 1940s?

Did PoW have them painted grey on superstructure or were they natural wood? I painted them as wood but... was that accurate? Flyhawk and many modeling PoW seem to follow that wood color idea but im now wondering if thats reasonable? I know Hood had them at least on the hull in grey paint, but not on superstructure and PoW around same time.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:35 pm 
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The photo you posted previously here would seem to suggest natural wood? When weathered a bit and exposed to sea salt it would be more or less a medium to light silvery brownish grey anyway?

pascalemod wrote:


And here is that ladder everyone talks about behind the P4, in full glory.
Attachment:
large_000000 (20).jpg


Though other photos on the IWM Website clearly show the boat booms as having been overpainted with the disruptive camouflage scheme later.

So perhaps they were natural wood when Prince of Wales was overall Home Fleet Dark Grey and camouflaged when she was camouflaged?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:56 am 
Near or close-up photographs taken of PoW at, or around the time of the Denmark Strait action and available by "Googling" "HMS Prince of Wales, Battleship," clearly indicate that all booms and derricks; wood or steel, were painted to match the ship in her current Home Fleet scheme.

Off subject but related to ship because I am not sure that the question has been answered here before: there is a photograph taken from a dock caisson of the starboard quarter of the ship; in dry dock, that indicates to my satisfaction that the ship's name on the stern was plated over. One might also be persuaded to take poison on it that the name on the port quarter was similarly treated! The Royal Navy always went "totus porkus" in those days.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:18 am 
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Admiralty Fleet Order 3935 dated 1940 says:

(iv) Varnish. - The use of varnish on spars is to be discontinued, wood spars generally are to be painted.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:27 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
Admiralty Fleet Order 3935 dated 1940 says:

(iv) Varnish. - The use of varnish on spars is to be discontinued, wood spars generally are to be painted.


Useful! So what does this look to you on this pic - wood or painted? If Im doing April - speed trials ship, I guess wood or paint both could be true. THough to me it looks chipping paint on wood. At least the texture of the spars seem visible, and Id have thought they were smooth enough that when painted it wouldnt show. What do you think? In one of images lower one of the deck spars is standing upright. Surely some of you can tell from this if this is painted wood or not? :)

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:49 am 
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The 'upright spar is a paravane derrick and does not appear to be wood at all (and is painted); the rest (wood) is not painted. The first image shows that clearly and a bunch of other high-res pics I have show the rest to be unpainted too.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:45 am 
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If I may ask, who is 'The Brass' doing the inspection in pascalemod's post above?

And is that actually on PoW?

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:01 am 
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Hello All

Hi Pascalemod, your model deserves be on a cover of any book!

Jamie is correct in his post as regards spars booms etc, but EJ is correct too as on PoW it seems to have been missed (that's the problem with ships, you just never know what is going on!).

If you look on the IWM photo library and put in Number A3910 I think it is, taken in April 41 you'll see the spar being cleaned (I think by one of the two sets of twins that were aboard PoW) and the wood grain is visible, of course this may be because its early on in her career and hasn't been done yet, or with use its worn off, they may be cleaning it, as matter of course for the picture, or in preparation to paint it, or repaint it!

Hi Kevin, the brass I think is actually Captain Leach, so it may be an inspection that coincides with Divisions?

Maybe our guest may help with that as he has better knowledge of ship protocols etc than I do, but I'm pretty sure it's Captain Leach.

Best wishes
Cag.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:06 pm 
Cag flatters me!

Kevin, the man is a little distant in the image shown but from his rank, demeanour and apparent height, I would say that it probably is Captain John Leach MVO (at that time and later awarded the DSO): known to his friends in the service, from what I have read elsewhere, as "Trunky" on account of his prominent nose, inspecting the Divisions of his crew. He was the father or the late Admiral of the Fleet Sir Henry Leach. There is an individual, closer full length photograph of Captain Leach at IWM photograph H12775.

Re: The painting of spars and booms. I cannot argue with what has gone before on this subject. However and as most will know, the problem with painting any surface is that one may not achieve full coverage of the previous finish until two or more coats of paint have been applied. It is therefore possible that the effect we are seeing is the nature of the wood "grinning" through the grey paint that has been applied. This is likely to be even more obvious if the paint applied is no more than a cosmetic "wash" in order to cover the varnished surface and comply with a general order to tone down "bright-work."

Cag's pointing out the IWM's A3910 interesting. I can't make out exactly what the young sailors are doing nor what with but scrapping off the varnish with a variety of (unclear) tools, in preparation for applying the grey paint seems the most likely.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:16 am 
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Guest wrote:
Kevin, the man is a little distant in the image shown but from his rank, demeanour and apparent height, I would say that it probably is Captain John Leach MVO (at that time and later awarded the DSO): known to his friends in the service, from what I have read elsewhere, as "Trunky" on account of his prominent nose, inspecting the Divisions of his crew. He was the father or the late Admiral of the Fleet Sir Henry Leach. There is an individual, closer full length photograph of Captain Leach at IWM photograph H12775.

Thanks sir, and Cag. Once Cag had mentioned that possibility it certainly fitted given the persons height, etc. And yes it seems he was a very well liked individual by his crew/s. A shame he was lost in the fashion he was.

Cag, pardon my sloth in answering latest PM, but only saw it late last night. Will try to do it justice with a reply later today.

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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