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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:24 pm 
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For Jim & Yevgeniy, Carnot in 3 different colour schemes......

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File comment: Carnot (ii); © unknown.
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File comment: Carnot (iv); © unknown.
Carnot 4.......jpg
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File comment: Carnot (v); © unknown.
Carnot 5.......jpg
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Cuirassé CARNOT; one of a ‘class’ of five related ships of differing design and appearance, Charles Martel, Carnot, Masséna, Jauréguiberry and Bouvet. Originally to be named Lazare Carnot for the Revolutionary Leader, her name was shortened to commemorate Lazare Carnot’s grandson Marie-François Sadi Carnot, President of the Republic who was assassinated on 25th June 1894. The Carnot was nicknamed ‘the Grand Hotel’ because of her unusual high-freeboard hull.

Builder - Arsenal de Toulon.

Programme – 1890. Designer – L’Ingénieur Saglio.
Laid down – 8th August 1891.
Launched – 12th July 1894.
Service – 25th June 1897 to 1st April 1914.

Length 121.5 metres - Breadth 21.7 metres. Displacement 12,273 tons.

Armament 2 x 305mm (centreline), 2 x 274mm (beam), 8 x 138.6mm, 8 x 100 mm, 16 x 47mm, 4 x 450mm TT.


Terry (Caravellarella)

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Last edited by Caravellarella on Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:35 pm 
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Thank you, Terry, for a separate thread and photos which I did not have. Now we have a thread for this great ship!

Since so far I can not contribute with Carnot built I will add some photos of her:

Image

Image

Image

This ship is definitely in my TO DO list but only after Dupuy de Lome which is also a long road to go. Till then hope other Carnot fans will contribute with information about this ship and of course with built models and of course I will follow closely.

Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:09 pm 
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Dear Yevgeniy, that first picture of yours is excellent; such detail, such a strange design. I've oftern wondered about this type of ships; they must have been so difficult to construct with all that compund-curvature armour. Perhaps that's why they took so long to build......

Attachment:
File comment: Carnot (iii); © unknown.
Carnot 3.......jpg
Carnot 3.......jpg [ 56.71 KiB | Viewed 3925 times ]


Terry (Caravellarella)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:30 pm 
I came across an illustration in a book that could be useful for the boat-handling rig by the aft funnel. The illustration is from another French ship of the same period, but the similarities are striking. The rig is like an overhead crane seen in factories. I have chopped the illustration to show how it works. There seems to be a variety of solutions to overcome the problem of launching boats from ships with such large tumblehomes. If you look at Carnot, Jaureguibbery, Massena and Bouvet, they are all different.
Hope it helps.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:49 am 
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Dear cerberusjf, thank you for these fascinating drawings. I'm sure a Carnot modeller will find them very useful......

Attachment:
File comment: Carnot (vi), © A. Bougault.
Carnot 6.......jpg
Carnot 6.......jpg [ 47.6 KiB | Viewed 3899 times ]


Terry (Caravellarella)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:35 pm 
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Carnot had the most delightful derrière!

Attachment:
stern 800 aft.jpg
stern 800 aft.jpg [ 90.22 KiB | Viewed 3926 times ]


Attachment:
stern 800.jpg
stern 800.jpg [ 137.35 KiB | Viewed 3927 times ]


Attachment:
Carno 800t stern dry.jpg
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Carnot800.jpg
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After some wondering --I can confirm that Carnot DID have a wooden main deck- there was a question mark on this--as some of her contemporary vessels had steel decks...

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deck 800.jpg
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An unusual shot UP the bridge
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carnot 800 bridge.jpg
carnot 800 bridge.jpg [ 112.49 KiB | Viewed 3917 times ]


(Images from the Madrid naval museum on-line collection)

The 'Festival Dreamworks' kit of CARNOT is from Japan and is a very short-run resin kit from a 'garage' manufacturer.

The kit at first sight appears to be quite good... however as there seem to be no 'proper' plans in existence--unlike many other French pre-dreads-- I can only assume the kit is based on photo interpretation.

the same photo interpretation that I have carried out to establish all the errors with the kit...

Maybe I have more and better quality photos..? -Certainly I have been trawling e-bay France and e-bay UK and purchasing some delicious postcards, which once scanned yield a huge amount of information!


The kit has all the hatches cast on --mainly in the right place-- but faaar to prominent!

as well as having a very pointy angular stern--contrary to all the photos above...!
Image

the aft superstructure is to wide--and I extensively re-shaped the stern and sides of the ship

Image

The cast on hatches had to go--in real life these were flush when closed; and as I wanted to show the ship with the hatches open--as virtually every photo of Carnot and her contemporary ships had; whether anchored or underway- I needed to think of something clever...
At the same time the wavy(!) armour belt was removed, the central gun platform was raised and reshaped, the cast on barbettes cut away and the whole side of the ship was faired and the curves created and softened.

Although there are some cross-section drawings available-- they do not - in my eyes- tally that well with what my eyes tell me when I examine photos...

If it looks right--it stands a sporting chance of being right(ish!)

The open hatches presenet a bit of an issue when one wants to use the kit as a springboard starting point; If starting entirely from scratch-in this instance definitley NOT the quicker option- one could build the hull in layers with each hatch as an open box section onto a central spine... could look excellent-but needs to be perefct-otherwise it will look nothing short of awful!!... -- ergo I decided to cheat!

Having sanded and faired the hull

Image

I decided to use small squares of decal sheet applied to represent the black 'voids'- the hatch lids top and bottom will be made of paper--similar to what I did on my Massena build--
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... eview.html

only this time I think it will be sharper- I hope

Image

I shall post a pic or three soon of my latest progress shortly!!

cheers

Jim Baumann :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Excellent pictures Jim, thank you. Carnot's stern must have been difficult to design and construct with all those compound curves......

Attachment:
File comment: Carnot (i); © unknown.
Carnot 1.......jpg
Carnot 1.......jpg [ 108.16 KiB | Viewed 3904 times ]


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Jim, that is really a delightful reading. I wanted to spend a couple of minutes for a short break between assignments (preparing Sunday night for Monday working hours :mad_1: ) but spent all 15-20 looking it all!

It is a marvelous ship - never seen her derrière before :big_grin: so that is just another feature why I will want to build it.

Your trick for representing openings is great! I would not dare to do otherwise in 1:700 and probably in 1:350 either.

Looking forward to see more.

Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Progress this weekend

All hatch voids have now been applied and the armour belt has been also glued on.


Waterline and anti fouling next before mounting--the hatches are far too delicate to be able to handle the hull afterwards.

Attachment:
Carnot hatch void alignemnt.jpg
Carnot hatch void alignemnt.jpg [ 62.56 KiB | Viewed 4565 times ]
Attachment:
Carnot hatches and armour belt on.jpg
Carnot hatches and armour belt on.jpg [ 75.44 KiB | Viewed 4732 times ]

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http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:29 pm 
Hi,

I think I’ve come up with another idea for this boat-handling frame by the aft funnel. I think the “horns” were hinged! I have lined this area in red. I believe the hinges are at “a” and “b”.
Attachment:
carnot_unfolded.JPG

Attachment:
carnot_boat_handling_hinge.JPG

Looking at them, I thought they must be hinges. But I never saw “Carnot” or any ship with them folded to the side of the ship.

Then I noticed the photos of “Marceau”. I found one with them folded, one with them spread out, or protruding over the side.
Attachment:
marceau_folded_crop.JPG

Attachment:
amrceau_folded_key.JPG


I thought it was proof for “Marceau”, but not for “Carnot”.

Then I noticed that a photo had them protruding on the side facing the camera, but seemed to be folded on the other side.
Attachment:
carnot_folded.JPG


What are everyone’s opinion about this idea please? This is the first time I have looked at this, so I am in completely new territory for me.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:36 am 
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Must eventually build my Yumematsu Carnot!

Thanks for the outstanding photos - will be useful for detail upgrades.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:22 am 
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cerberusjf wrote:
I came across an illustration in a book that could be useful for the boat-handling rig by the aft funnel. The illustration is from another French ship of the same period, but the similarities are striking. The rig is like an overhead crane seen in factories. I have chopped the illustration to show how it works. There seems to be a variety of solutions to overcome the problem of launching boats from ships with such large tumblehomes. If you look at Carnot, Jaureguibbery, Massena and Bouvet, they are all different.
Hope it helps.


Hi Cerberus, I suspect those drawings are from Le Foudre, the torpedoboat-mothership? Are there any more images/drawings of her in that book, and if so, could you tell me which book? (or, maybe even supply the drawings?) Le Foudre has been on my scratchbuilding wishlist for almost a year and I need all the references I can get.

Thanks in advance,

Michel

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:45 pm 
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Makes sense for me John. Those end frames extend quite a way from ship sides and,if it was permanent structure, would have been extremly vulnerable to damage. Even out of the ordinary sway (side to side motion) could have deformed them and rendered whole arrangement useless.

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Last edited by DariusP on Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:28 pm 
Hi Michel,
Yes indeed, it is “la Foudre”. There is only one other illustration of her in this book, which is this.
Attachment:
foudre.JPG

The book it came from is “Manuel du manoeuvrier” Vol III (1900)

http://www.archive.org/stream/manueldum ... 7/mode/1up

http://www.archive.org/stream/manueldum ... 8/mode/1up

http://www.archive.org/stream/manueldum ... 9/mode/1up

From the book.

Installations pour hisser les torpilleurs. — Quel-
ques bâtiments de guerre portent des torpilleurs ; des transports
(la Foudre en France, le Vulcan en Angleterre, etc.) ont même
été particulièrement afiectés à ce service.

Les marines de guerre étrangères emploient pour leur ma-
nœuvre des mâts de charge ou des grues tournantes analogues,
toutes proportions gardées, à ceux décrits précédemment. Le
poids de ces torpilleurs variant entre 15 et 20 tonneaux, les in-
convénients de la patte d'oie unique sont plus sensibles; aussi en
France, le transport la Foudre a été installé d'après le principe
du pont roulant qui permet de hisser le torpilleur avec deux ita-
gues en fil d*acier, crochées ou maillées vers ses extrémités
(fig. 71, 72 et 73). Une poutre plus longue que le torpilleur re-
pose par ses extrémités et par Tintermédiaire de galets sur deux
systèmes de rails placés transversalement au-dessus du pont du
bâtiment, à une hauteur telle que- le torpilleur hissé sous la
poutre puisse parer le bastingage. Les rails débordent la coque,
de chaque bord, d'une quantité suffisante pour mettre le torpil-
leur à la mer. La poutre est munie de verrous qui permettent de
rimmobiliser aux divers postes pour pouvoir manœuvrer les
itagues de hissage à Taide de treuils à vapeur. Toutes les fois
qu'on déplace la poutre sur ses rails, il faut suspendre le tor-
pilleur par les braguets et donner du mou dans les itagues.

Des palans croches à diverges hauteurs le long de la coque
servent à main tenir le torpilleur quand on fait la manœuvre par
roulis (1). L'installation de la Fondre perufiet de mettre sur le pont
quatre torpilleurs cùte à côte.

Mais quel que soit le système employé la manœuvre est à peu près
impossible par mauvais temps et délicate par mer agîtée.
Si on juge qu'elle est faisable hisser ou débarquer le torpilleur
sous le vent, en évitant de venir en travers par crainte des
roulis.

Hisser les embarcations par mauvais temps* —
Cette opération, difficile avec une embarcation légère devient “


Thanks Darius, I’m glad someone else thinks it makes sense. I think it must have looked quite spectacular in operation, almost like something out of science-fiction. There are pictures of her on the move with the “extensions” deployed, so I am not sure when they were retracted. It certainly gives plenty of modelling options, if they are wanted.

Best wishes.

Here is another photo
Attachment:
carnot_A.JPG


edit spelling corrected


Last edited by cerberusjf on Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:54 pm 
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Well John, think about folding bridge wings on German warships. Most photos show those wings unfolded but designers must have thought that, under certain conditions, folding them would be advantageous.

Besides, as you have pointed out, if those aren't hinges:
Image

I would like to hear explanation as to what they are......

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:38 am 
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Thanks, cerberus!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:11 am 
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Thank you gents for your insight(s)

certainly they appear on closer examination to be hinged-though in virtually all my pics of the ship they are deployed outboard--with the exception of the photo that John has posted! :big_grin:

Here is another view of that hinge...

Attachment:
Carnot davits.jpg
Carnot davits.jpg [ 175.42 KiB | Viewed 3912 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:07 am 
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JIM BAUMANN wrote:
Thank you gents for your insight(s)

certainly they appear on closer examination to be hinged-though in virtually all my pics of the ship they are deployed outboard--with the exception of the photo that John has posted! :big_grin:

Here is another view of that hinge...

Attachment:
Carnot davits.jpg


Wouldn`t it be great to have PE kits available for the French Predreadnought era ships.....

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:27 pm 
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That wouldn't be an easy task GA. French pre-dreads were one-off ships with marked differences between them. This means that, with possible exception of railings, a set of PE for one ship could not be used for another.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:09 pm 
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Doing my level best to figure out Carnots fwd bridge from photos--
not having any concrete plans to follow slavishly ... :big_grin: I am drawing my own plans from various angles of photos--I am no expert at this but it is starting to look like the real thing --in a 1/700 kind of way!

below is the first bridge level-- the distinctive pierced sides are thin PE strips- cut from a much larger PE structire gleaned from a L'arsenal 1/350 PE set....

The deck itself is made of paper - cut folded in half to give perfect symmetry, then pressed flat and infused with CA.

This gives a 'scale' thin deck....

Its a very fiddly pastime as each brass section is seperate...


Attachments:
bridge deck pierced surround.jpg
bridge deck pierced surround.jpg [ 106.34 KiB | Viewed 4560 times ]

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