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Include three, twin 15-inch turrets as an option?
Yes 70%  70%  [ 100 ]
No 30%  30%  [ 43 ]
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:04 am 
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Hello Stein,

Olaf is a good knowledgeable guy about KM regulations and Germany navy overall, .... so his inputs are very precious .... :thumbs_up_1: .

I think you got the point very well about what was going on, .. and as you said it is sometimes confusing, .... and does not follow always the rules ( strange for Germans isnt it ) ... but for me is only fascinating and one of the reasons why I keep on searching on them after 40 years of researches.

Bye and happy modeling, Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:20 am 
Olaf Held wrote:

@ Daniel ~ I hate to ask, but how comes you opted for Dunkelgrau 51? I wonder that nobody on MB came up with this question...

Happy modelling (my line! :heh: ) ~ Olaf!



Hi Olaf,

we had this issue on several occasions - in fact there is no reliable source which says definitely what is right. Before my decision i tested the KM51 and KM52 colors. A comparison with a whiteensign- illustration and some pictures from operation 'Silzilen' showing her together with Tirpitz, owned this decision. i´m also interested in black and white photography and the old photographs and I think it´s not possible to determine how it was definitely based on the photos.
In fact i had to make a decision and KM51 was according to my preferences.

https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/page/ ... olours/20/

cheers... Daniel


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:21 am 
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Hi Daniel ~ Well, you should look at photos showing the ship in her guise from around Op. Paderborn.

The camouflage from Op. Sizilien is in my opinion much too confusing when it comes to pin down certain colours. There are good quality photos around, showing the ship together with Tirpitz during maneuvres in March (?) 1943. On these photos, taken from other vessels or from Tirpitz, you really can see how dark the ship was.

But you're right, we will never know with 100% certainty. I think the best approach to this is to look at the paint regulations to determine what they were allowed to use. The problem is, from about mid-1942 mixing of paints was no longer forbidden, maybe as a result of the Dechend memorandum. It also could be that it was allowed from 1944 on, with the updated paint regulations. This differs much from its predecessor from 1941, in which you just have four shades of grey (7000 (51), 7001 (50), 7016 (23a/b plus 59) and 7024 (52)), and two more shades used for camouflage purposes (31.1 and 31.2). This makes everything a bit tricky. The very dark colour on the dark Scharnhorst was just slightly lighter than the dark band surrounding her superstructure bulkheads. This dark band, I have to look it up, but I bet it was not black, but maybe painted in 7016 (23b) like the rain gutters (the rain gutters appear in the paint regulation). If you search in the list above, what lighter shade comes next, then you arrive at 7024 (52). The problem is, the 7024 (52) is called *Absatzfarbe*. What does this mean? Is it derrived from *absetzen* (i.e. paint a dark grey pattern on a light grey base coat to make it stand out, so that it can be clearly differentiated from the light grey - it's all about contrast ... gosh! Isn't there an English word for it?) or from *Absatz* (the dark band around the superstructure). If the latter is true, then my theory goes right down the drain ...

Anyway, your models looks great so far, keep it coming!

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:55 am 
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Olaf Held wrote:
Hi Daniel ~ Well, you should look at photos showing the ship in her guise from around Op. Paderborn.

The camouflage from Op. Sizilien is in my opinion much too confusing when it comes to pin down certain colours. There are good quality photos around, showing the ship together with Tirpitz during maneuvres in March (?) 1943. On these photos, taken from other vessels or from Tirpitz, you really can see how dark the ship was.

But you're right, we will never know with 100% certainty. I think the best approach to this is to look at the paint regulations to determine what they were allowed to use. The problem is, from about mid-1942 mixing of paints was no longer forbidden, maybe as a result of the Dechend memorandum. It also could be that it was allowed from 1944 on, with the updated paint regulations. This differs much from its predecessor from 1941, in which you just have four shades of grey (7000 (51), 7001 (50), 7016 (23a/b plus 59) and 7024 (52)), and two more shades used for camouflage purposes (31.1 and 31.2). This makes everything a bit tricky. The very dark colour on the dark Scharnhorst was just slightly lighter than the dark band surrounding her superstructure bulkheads. This dark band, I have to look it up, but I bet it was not black, but maybe painted in 7016 (23b) like the rain gutters (the rain gutters appear in the paint regulation). If you search in the list above, what lighter shade comes next, then you arrive at 7024 (52). The problem is, the 7024 (52) is called *Absatzfarbe*. What does this mean? Is it derrived from *absetzen* (i.e. paint a dark grey pattern on a light grey base coat to make it stand out, so that it can be clearly differentiated from the light grey - it's all about contrast ... gosh! Isn't there an English word for it?) or from *Absatz* (the dark band around the superstructure). If the latter is true, then my theory goes right down the drain ...

Anyway, your models looks great so far, keep it coming!

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


Hi Olaf,

another interesting source is this one:
http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2092:jung-abendroth-kelling-anstriche-und-tarnanstriche-der-deutschen-kriegsmarine&catid=157
The book confirms my opinion on this camouflage: The Colorcode Dunkelgrau 51 (RAL7000) was determined for the coatings from late 1942 / early 1943 (Operation Frontheater, Paderporn... Silzilien ect.)
Another Source (suprising) told me to colour it in dark blue: http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Warships-43-Kriegsmarine-Colours/dp/8372371717/ref=cm_rdp_product
On page 75 the camo from Sizilien is shown with green tops of the turrets and the statement: hull and superstructures - dunkelblau, stern and bow - white.
I didn't know what is certainly true, because of that i selected the color i mostly prefer. Your knowledge of the Kriegsmarine seems really brilliant - maybe i will ask you some more things during my SH project!

:wave_1: , Daniel


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Hi Daniel ~ Both your sources are just secondary sources. The ATDK book, I have it as well, refers mainly to the 1944 paint regulation (ABB Nr. 31). I'm afraid it's of limited use for describing earlier paint jobs. Of course, the authors could just make assumptions as according to today's knowledge, nothing was ever recorded on how to paint this or that vessel with camouflage paints. We just have a list of paints and what they were used for. Again, look at photos, not secondary sources or illustrations in books or on the internet. Furthermore, ATDK is not free of flaws, just have a look at the translations...
The good thing is that it features quite some information about the Dechend memorandum and how things were done.

The second book, well, I highly doubt the presence of green turret tops. If someone comes around the corner with a bulletproof document, photo or whatever primary source, I'll change my opinion. There is a map around, a reproduction (secondary source, I know, but it was copied from an original official document) showing the 1943 northern western hemisphere with all the colours (possibly) used for air recognition, i.e. yellow in this waters, red in this waters, blue here or there, etc., but no green at all anywhere. Btw., if you paint the turret tops of your ship in red or whatever, you must tell your friends from the Luftwaffe about it. I bet there is/was some documentation showing exactly this. Has anyone ever tried to find out something about it in the Luftwaffe sections of the great archives? We all just look for ships, navy and whatever...

Dark blue on the hull? Pffft ... I think they're following some myth, too much emphasis on the Dechend recommendations, i.e. blue here or there. As I understood it, he just wanted to have SMALL amounts of ultramarine and other stuff added to the paints which made them less intense/shiny in certain light conditions. I don't recall something saying that all the colours were so heavily tinted in blue that the former (grey) paints were no longer recognisable. Btw, I think you're mixing up the camouflage schemes of Op. Paderborn (your model) and Op. Sizilien. The latter is the same as used on Op. Ostfront.

Elbe1 wrote:
Your knowledge of the Kriegsmarine seems really brilliant
No, not really, I just read a few things about colours, nothing more. Antonio is the one knowing the great stuff... :cool_2:

Elbe1 wrote:
maybe i will ask you some more things during my SH project!
Please do so. And if I make a fool out of myself, I hope others will chime in to help you! :heh:

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:26 am 
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...eeeh
Is it not so that Scharnhorst already had her "mountain" camo during Op Sizilien? According to older sources it was not so, but "Warship Pictorial 36", p 69 and 70 show the ship in this camo. The best proof is probably the fact that in one of these pictures, S is sailing with Tirpitz - must be an operation, and I do not think the two ships sailed together after Sizilien.
One picture also show S in this camo from starboard side with what seems to be (at least to me) a dark grey area on the smokestack rear and lower part. This is also very obvious on the next picture from port side. This dark grey area is not included in any to the interpretations I can find in the Internet.

The last picture in the above mentioned series claims to be from Des 1943, but I very much doubt this as there is hardly any snow in the landscape. Snow is normally present in this area from late Aug/Sept - in Dec it is hardly any light at all and full winter!

Also "Tirpitz, Hitlers siste slagskip" p 114 shows S during Op Sizilien, but this is a small picture only without and any distinct background, so it is not proving the photo was taken during that operation.
:wave_1:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:39 am 
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Hello Stein,

you are right, .... before I have released that mountain profile camo ( the one she had during Op. Sizilien and Op. Ostfront ) with Andrea Toller, ... many sources wrongly reported that Scharnhorst last camo was the one on full dark grey with white stern and bow, .... so you can realize yourself now the level of knowledge of those sources.

You mentioned : "Warship Pictorial 36", page 69 and 70 .... on this book from my friend Steve Wiper you can see my name on page 72, .... guess who helped Steve on those photo captioning.

Than you mentioned "Tirpitz, Hitlers siste slagskip" page 114 that shows Scharnhorst during Op Sizilien on the top photo and NOT Tirpitz as someone incorrectly captioned, and I can confirm you that the photo shows Scharnhorst and was taken during Operation Sizilien from an escorting destroyer.

You want a final confirmation that Scharnhorst last camo was the mountain profile ??? Good, just look at the 2 or 3 wreck available photos and you will still see that camo painted on her hull on the bottom of the artic sea, ... especially on the photo showing the 150 mm gun upside down.

Regarding the colour of that camo,... just read the A. Jacobsen Scharnhorst book and you will be able to read a communication from Norwegian underground agents to London ACIU on December 1943 telling them precisely the ship camo colours : " .... made on tone of grey's ... "

Hope this is clear enough now,.... Bye Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:48 pm 
Good work Antonio!

I have read Jacosens book at least two times and also seen the wreck photos in Internet, so to me this is very clear. As said, I had seen the Internet photos, but only now I connected the color to the mountain pattern!

Well, honor to those who deseve it: Thanks for your contribution to determine the presence of the Mountain Profile once and for all!
Should you also happen to know when in Aug/Sept the camo was painted?

Stein


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:28 am 
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Hello Stein and all,

you are very kind and I thank you for your nice words.

It was when I saw the correct camo pattern on that 150 mm single gun photo that I realized I was having the final answer to my researches and the proof of evidence.
I am glad you were able to make it on same way now.

In Kaafjord, that year july was the painting month.
Tirpitz camo was applied on her on mid july 1943, ... I can imagine that Lutzow and Scharnhorst had their camo applied on same period as well.
In my personal computer Scharnhorst folder in fact I have the repaint done on July 1943.

Same goes for the drawings I have released with Andrea Toller, you can see that camo M ( Sizilien ) is on July 1943.

http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=450


Bye Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:58 am 
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Olaf Held wrote:
Jimmy Conway wrote:
Please, If somebody can help:

How many raised hatches did Gneisenau had per side in the bow area?
5, 6 or 7?
I have many different information from a lot of sources.


According to what I can spot on photos, there were five on either side.

Then, there were at least three (four or five maybe?) on either side of the aft superstructure, between the aft secondary turrets and turret C.

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


I knew it! :heh:

Four boxes aft, found on another forum:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/AndPl/Gneisenau%20II/C7InxphiNBZA.jpg

Happy modelling ~ Olaf

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:01 am 
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Quote:
Please, If somebody can help:

How many raised hatches did Gneisenau had per side in the bow area?
5, 6 or 7?
I have many different information from a lot of sources.XXXXXXX

According to what I can spot on photos, there were five on either side.

Then, there were at least three (four or five maybe?) on either side of the aft superstructure, between the aft secondary turrets and turret C.

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

I knew it! :heh:

Four boxes aft, found on another forum:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/AndPl/Gneisenau%20II/C7InxphiNBZA.jpg

Happy modelling ~ Olaf


Hi Olaf, thank you very much for your kind answers.

1. OK, I have no doubt now that the aft portion of the ship has for hatches per side.
2. You say 5 hatches per side in the bow section. Is it final conclusion?

My efforts were as this: I have two movies from Germany Navy, they show Gneisenau in different operations, so I stayed tunned watching them about three or more hours trying to count the hatches in the bow, but the rigth angle does not come.

Best: Jimmy

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:18 am 
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Jimmy Conway wrote:
Hi Olaf, thank you very much for your kind answers.

1. OK, I have no doubt now that the aft portion of the ship has for hatches per side.
2. You say 5 hatches per side in the bow section. Is it final conclusion?

My efforts were as this: I have two movies from Germany Navy, they show Gneisenau in different operations, so I stayed tunned watching them about three or more hours trying to count the hatches in the bow, but the rigth angle does not come.

Best: Jimmy


Yes, five hatches on either side of the forward main turrets.

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:02 am 
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Hi Olaf, thank you very much for strong statement that demonstrates the knowledge.

I'll use it as a reference.

Best :thumbs_up_1: :
Jimmy

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:34 am 
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gentlemen i'm trying to find an accurate set of scharnhorst plans. i have the kagero book and have found numerous errors in it. rob mccunes plans won't be available untill late summer. can you suggest another source. yours fred


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:01 am 
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Fred, I'm afraid Rob's are the most accurate ...

Ask hm if he can send a DVD in order that you can print it out by yourself. Of course, this doubles the costs ...


Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Sorry guys, new baby and an impending move take priority right now. Also I don't sell digital copies.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:55 pm 
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hello , does anyone have any good photos of DKM Gneisenau during operation Cerberus? and is there any good referents/ moldel photos as well?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:57 pm 
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One more question guys how good in the tamyia kits for these two? Should I just what for a new re-tooled kit to come out? also how good is flyhawks Photo-etch set for these two as well?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Do any large scale plans of Scharnhorst pre-Atlantic bow exist. I've found plenty of 1940+ plans in different scales. I'm trying to build a 1/400 1939 Pre-Atlantic bow version out of the Heller kit.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Hello everybody,

update on Scharnhorst Baltic camouflage scheme ..... :thumbs_up_1:


http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index. ... #msg195450

Bye Antonio :cool_2:


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