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Include three, twin 15-inch turrets as an option?
Yes 71%  71%  [ 119 ]
No 29%  29%  [ 49 ]
Total votes : 168
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Remember that the bridge wings were normally folded in at sea and only extended when navigating in and out of port or under other maneuvering circumstances.

I looked at the pic in Colleckchiy 2002 Battleship Scharnhorst. The picture was indeed taken in Brest, probably right after the ship returned from Operation Berlin. The evidence is the white building with the blownout windows which seems to match the building in the linked picture. Scharnhorst was alongside the quay where the oiler is in the picture before going into dock. In the pic in the book it looks like the crew was already trying to camouflage the ship with netting.

Image

HTH

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Great picture - this indeed confirms the Scharnhorst picture as having been made in Brest. The white building is the same as in the Trojca book. Also the hull looks pretty heavily weathered and rusty - never seen this state of condition on pictures of Scharnhorst or Gneisenau while in a german harbour. Now the big question is - did Scharnhorst and Gneisenau wore their crests during the Operation Berlin? I cannot find a reason why the crew would have put it on the hull after they arrived in Brest, so I have to assume it was in place during their raid in the atlantic ocean.

Maybe the crest(s) have been removed on some pictures by the Propaganda-unit - I cannot find on the officially taken pictures during the mission. The Trojca books states that the 10.5m rangefinder has been removed on a press-picture in a german newspaper. There was a trend to remove distintive identification and "secret" details on offially released pictures.

Any idea on this?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:48 am 
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Hello everybody,

@ Thegreenmachine,

NO bow crest on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau after the beginning of the war, they have been removed on ALL Kriegsmarine warships unless the Graf Spee that was already at sea.
The panzerschiffe Deutschland was at sea too on September 1939, and her crest's being immediately removed and the ship renamed Lutzow once back home.

Same for the ship names in gothic and the eagle on the stern with the only exceptions of Gneisenau until spring 1940 and the Blucher until her sinking during Op. Weserubung on April 1940.

Also the ship name on the sailors hat being removed and changed with : Kriegsmarine

They were very concerned about the warships exact identification and did everything possible to avoid it.

Hope this helps, ... Bye Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Thanks Antonio! Maybe the picture with the crest is a fraud? Can't explain this otherwise...the picture certainly doesn't show Scharnhorst before the war in 1939.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:41 am 
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Antonio, your research has been a tremendous help and I appreciate that you shared it with other modelers. There are other pics that show ornamentation in late 1939 and early 1940. One picture is the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau in Wilhelmshaven after the January 1940 transit with their stern eagles. While I have not seen any pics or Scharnhorst with the bow shields after late 1939, this picture in Brest clearly shows otherwise. I am wondering if some of the pictures, with no shields visible have been censored.

One bit of clarification of your timeline for Scharnhorst which lists the installation of the degaussing gear in March 1940, however photographs don't support this. There is a picture of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sailing for Norway in April 1940, a clear version being in Warship Pictorial 36 by Steve Wiper, which clearly shows a lack of degaussing equipment. Gneisenau had it by this time. The picture of Scharnhorst in drydock later in 1940, having her torpedo damage repaired, shows that the paint has been removed from the hull in preparation for the belt installation. The belt was clearly present by Spring 1941.

Thanks

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Hello everybody,

@ Thegreenmachine,

I cannot evaluate it without having seen the photo we are talking about.
Is it possible for you to post it here in ?

@ Charles Landrum,

also in your case, can I see the photos you are referring to here in ?

YES, I agree with you, the degaussing cable on Scharnhorst was installed during the works between june 24 and november 21, 1940, ... not in March 1940.

Bye Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Image

Hope this small outtake is ok for discussion only, I don't want to violate any copyrights.

Quote:
I am wondering if some of the pictures, with no shields visible have been censored.


These were exactly my thoughts...I guess either the bow crest is a fraud or the censors have done good work on all official pictures.

Anyway, thanks Antonio for your contribution - your help is really appreciated and I really like your work!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Thanks for posting!

Antonio, that is the picture we were able to match to Brest because of the building in the background, which puts Scharnhorst on the quay wall. The weathering of the hull is consistent with the vessel's condition after Operation Berlin.

I look forward to your thoughts, Charles

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:05 am 
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Hello everybody,

@ Thegreenmachine @ Charles Landrum,

now it is clear, ... question for you both : have you ever seen this photo ?

http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/Operatio ... 41-01.html

What that photo is telling you once compared to the one you showed me ?

Please verify yourself that surely before Brest ( during Op. Berlin ) and after Brest during Op. Cerberus, ... the Scharnhorst was not having any Coat of Arm ( Wappen ) on her bow.

Bye Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:07 pm 
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There is clearly no coat of arms on the picture in your link. But then, in my opinion, the hull is much less weathered compared to the pic where the coat of arms is in place...

Antonio, would you say the picture with the crest on the bow is a forgery image? I see no other possibilty...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:59 pm 
The shield is absent from the starboard side on Antonio's photo, but there is something on the port side.. also, there is something visible in this image. Perhaps there was a shield painted onto the side, but painted over at the start of the war, but weathering has worn off the paint, revealing the shield again?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:23 pm 
http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/Operatio ... lin-02.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:04 am 
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Hello everybody,

here what I think personally.

The coat of arm was never painted, it was a solid piece of metal thick and heavy and it has been removed at the beginning of the war on both sides.

During and after Operation Berlin the weathering has worn off the paint, revealing the position and the " shadow " where the coat of arm was located, ... and that is what we are looking at.

As soon as they painted again the hull everything was back to normal and that " shadow " disappeared once again.

It is a frequent occurrence, and it happened also at midship with the Baltic stripes, if you look the photos carefully.

Bye Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:12 am 
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This is the picture I thought might be censored, but I agree it could be a shadow too. That said, paint fades rapidly at sea and for there to be less weathered paint revealed by the removal of the shield, would indicate to me that the shield was only removed before the start of the Operation. Which could indicate that the shields were not removed solely at the start of the war, never to return, but might have adorned the ship from time to time, perhaps between operations. I would agree that toward the middle of the war, the shields went away all together.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:22 am 
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As for the previous linked picture by Green Machine, I don't recall seeing this before; it is clearly taken in Brest by the building in the background. The weathering matches other photos following the return from Operation Berlin. This picture looks like it was "sharpened" by the developer or printer of the film - look at the bull nose/hawse for an indication. I think the photo does suggest a port shield. The angle is too oblique to reveal just a discoloration of the hull.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:34 am 
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Thinking of doing a back date from the 1941 to 1936. Any ideas on removing the Atlantic bow with the "Straight" bow?
thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:17 pm 
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if correct the distance between the bow foot & stern are the same so see what the difference is in overall length between non-atlantic & atlantic bow. cut off that difference plus more as you need to fill in the resulting cavity & shape it correctly. I'm doing that with revel's 1/429 scale Arizona to make the new mexico, tennessess & Colorado classes battleships.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:57 am 
Just to add a bit to Antonio's brief but excellent discussion of removing "unique identifiers" from German ships at the beginning of the war, one might also add that it was common for many of the naval units pre war to have crests and names painted on their turrets (in the case of Deutschland, an eagle and "Hitler" on the sides of A turret). This was most common on the cruisers, Deutschland class and I believe Prinz Eugen had names on her turret sides for a short period of time. These were all painted over at the beginning of hostilities. Antonio is also correct that Graf Spee still had her crests on the bows but photos show these were over painted in gray and I think we are all familiar with the story of her stern eagle. This was added strictly for historical interest and to make sure that anybody (masochists) using Peddinghaus decals pays attention to the time frame of the ship being depicted as his sheets do provide these turret crests. Sorry that this has absolutely nothing to do with the actual discussion here, however.
Mike


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:00 am 
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Olaf Held wrote:
Hi Daniel ~ Both your sources are just secondary sources. The ATDK book, I have it as well, refers mainly to the 1944 paint regulation (ABB Nr. 31). I'm afraid it's of limited use for describing earlier paint jobs. Of course, the authors could just make assumptions as according to today's knowledge, nothing was ever recorded on how to paint this or that vessel with camouflage paints. We just have a list of paints and what they were used for. Again, look at photos, not secondary sources or illustrations in books or on the internet. Furthermore, ATDK is not free of flaws, just have a look at the translations...
The good thing is that it features quite some information about the Dechend memorandum and how things were done.

The second book, well, I highly doubt the presence of green turret tops. If someone comes around the corner with a bulletproof document, photo or whatever primary source, I'll change my opinion. There is a map around, a reproduction (secondary source, I know, but it was copied from an original official document) showing the 1943 northern western hemisphere with all the colours (possibly) used for air recognition, i.e. yellow in this waters, red in this waters, blue here or there, etc., but no green at all anywhere. Btw., if you paint the turret tops of your ship in red or whatever, you must tell your friends from the Luftwaffe about it. I bet there is/was some documentation showing exactly this. Has anyone ever tried to find out something about it in the Luftwaffe sections of the great archives? We all just look for ships, navy and whatever...

Dark blue on the hull? Pffft ... I think they're following some myth, too much emphasis on the Dechend recommendations, i.e. blue here or there. As I understood it, he just wanted to have SMALL amounts of ultramarine and other stuff added to the paints which made them less intense/shiny in certain light conditions. I don't recall something saying that all the colours were so heavily tinted in blue that the former (grey) paints were no longer recognisable. Btw, I think you're mixing up the camouflage schemes of Op. Paderborn (your model) and Op. Sizilien. The latter is the same as used on Op. Ostfront.


Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


with ref this quote would you then be saying that 'Encyclopedia of Warships 43 - Kriegsmarine Colors Vol. 1 ( Colours )' - https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-War ... dp_product is less likly to be right with some of its colours used then say German Naval Camouflage Volume One 1939-1941 vol 1 and vol2 https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/184 ... d_i=468294 as im looking at useing one of the more colourfull camo's and the first book has part of it more a light blue and the 2nd one has it more as a grey?


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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 3:49 pm 
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john.chick wrote:
with ref this quote would you then be saying that 'Encyclopedia of Warships 43 - Kriegsmarine Colors Vol. 1 ( Colours )' - https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-War ... dp_product is less likly to be right with some of its colours used then say German Naval Camouflage Volume One 1939-1941 vol 1 and vol2 https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/184 ... d_i=468294 as im looking at useing one of the more colourfull camo's and the first book has part of it more a light blue and the 2nd one has it more as a grey?


Goodness, after five years... :smallsmile:

I don't have the Encyclopedia book, I'm just saying that I doubt the blue, and that all those books are just secondary scources. The ADTK book as well, but at least they give credit to one primary scource. In case of the Assmussen books, I once had Vol. I but gave it away as it was full of ... eh ... misconceptions. At least I do not remember strange colours, so, yes, with regard to this, it seems to be better than the Enc. I recall that I had difficulties to distinguish between the lightest grey and white, but that may have been a problem caused by the printing process.

Happy painting ~ Olaf!


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