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Include three, twin 15-inch turrets as an option?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:09 pm 
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Hello friends, ¿ someone knows if the Scharnhorst crossed the Kiel Canal after January of 1943?. I am building the Heller 1/400 and i would like a diorama crossing the canal. Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:49 pm 
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Hello Fran Romero,

here you can find a brief story of Scharhorst during 1942,...... and 1943,...sorry,..the answer is NO !


Scharnhorst on 1942 in the Baltic

At the end of Operation Cerberus Scharnhorst arrived at Wihlemshaven and was put into the 40.000 tons drydock on 14 February 1942.
Damages caused by the 2 mines to the hull were far superior than first thought.
The outher and double bottom required and extensive re-plating on 2 areas for more than 90 meters length on the first and more than 35 m length in the second.
Several turrets had been dislodged from their roller beds.
Main engine foundations and some auxiliary plant were in such a bad condition to suggest a complete overhaul; most of these recommendations were postponed.
Scharnhorst got transferred for the repairs to Kiel some days later, after Adm Schniewind and Gross-Admiral Reader visited the ship at Wilhelmshaven on the drydock.
On March 1942 Kpt zur See K.C Hoffmann got promoted and was substituted by Kpt zur See F. Huffmeier.
After some unsatisfactory sea trials Scharnhorst got transferred to Gotenhafen ( Gdynia ) for working up.
During this period any type of accident occurred to the ship.
She run on a sandbank close to Gdynia, she was refloated by moving some oil from one bunker to another.
She escaped with some luck to a amine explosion after an air raid at Gdynia.
The airplane catapult started working badly and dropped the Arado 196 instead that on the sky on the sea, one crew member died, the other survived.
On October 1942 Kpt zur See F. Huffmeier got substituted by Kpt zur See F. Hintze.
When carrying out exercise with some U-Boot’s out of Kiel she collided with U-523, causing to the submarine minor damages.
Scharnhorst keel was harmed and during November 1942 she got drydocked again.
On 22 December 1942 a sever damage occurred on Scharnhosrt main machinery , which can be close correlated with the recommendations by the technical experts during previous inspections.
While this was occurring and Scharnhorst can only run effectively with only 2 shafts out of 3, the ship was ordered to Norway.

and ...

Scharnhorst going to Norway on 1943

After the disastrous results of Op. Regenbogen ( when at the end of 1942 Adm Hipper and Lutzow failed to attack an artic convoy JW51-B ) Hitler substituted Adm Reader with Adm Donitz, and expressed the desire to dismantle all German capital ships.
Adm Donitz came back to Hitler with a proposal to save the ships and move them all to Norway, were they could be used effectively to attack Artic Convoys.
For this reason Scharnhorst was to be moved from Baltic sea area to Norway as soon as possible.

First trial to go to Norway
On 10 January 1943 under command of Adm Schniewind, Scharnhorst together with the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, and the destroyers Z5 Paul Jacobi, Z14 Friedrich Ihn and Z 24 sailed from Gotenhafen to Norway ( Operation Frontheater ).
Due to severe warnings of potential RAF air attacks the squadron on the 11th returned to Gotenhafen.


Second trial to go to Norway
On 23 January 1943 Scharnhorst together with the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, and the destroyers Z 15 Erich Steinbrinck and Z 39 sailed from Gotenhafen to Norway ( Operation Domino ).
Again due to warnings of potential RAF air attacks the squadron on the 27th returned to Gotenhafen.
During this operation the Scharnhorst was already wearing the famous dark grey camo scheme with the white bow and stern.


Third trial to go to Norway
On 6 March 1943 Scharnhorst together with the destroyers Z 15 Erich Steinbrinck, Z 14 Friedrich Ihn and Z 28 sailed from Gotenhafen to Norway ( Operation Paderborn ).
This time the ships arrived safely to Narvik and dropped the anchors into Bogen Bay on the 9th.
Lutzow and Nurnberg joined the ship into Narvik on the 11th.
The Tirpitz joined on the13th.
The ships exercised jointly for 10 days and on 22 March 1943 they anchored into Altafjord on Kaafjord.
Scharnhorst was directed into Langfjord, another inlet of Altafjord, togheter with Lutzow.

Summer in Norway on Altafjord
On 8 April 1943 there was a tremendous explosion on board Scharnhorst on compartment III above the armour deck on the starboard side.
17 crew members were killed and 20 were injured.
The cause was never established although sabotage during the dockyard lay-up at Gotenhafen was suspected.

Scharnhorst spent the spring and the summer of 1943 togheter with Tirpitz and Lutzow exercising on the Altafjord area.
During summer time the ship got re-painted with a ‘ Mountain Profile ‘ camo scheme, probably during July 1943 ( same thing occurred for sure to Lutzow and Tirpitz ).

Ciao Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:58 pm 
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Hello Antonio, first thank you so much for your so complete explanation, is gratifying to receive aid of someone with so many know-how on this theme. According to your explanations, ¿ you believe that is possible that the Scharnhorst crossed for last time the channel with the camouflage of the Op. Frontteater?. Would be able to have painted with that camouflage during its repairs before crossing the channel?. With what camouflage crossed it for last time?. I feel it for doing you so many questions, but I am not capable of finding light in this theme and i would like that my diorama was adjusted it more possible to the reality.

Many thanks Antonio.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:56 pm 
I also saw the you-tube video on the Scharnorst & Gneisenau at sea. They must have been very unsatisfactory ships for the North Atlantic. They did look like submarines as a surprising/scary amount of water was seen flowing over the bow. No wonder the Atlantic bows were fitted. They must have been too fine forward so that there was not enough buoyancy forward, similar to the Iowas.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:10 am 
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Hello Fran and all,

Thanks for teh nice compliments.

NO, I do not think that after the Op. Cerberus on February 1942 and the transfer in March 1942 from Wilhelmshaven ( west side of KW Kanal ) to Gotenhafen ( in Poland so east side of the KW Kanal ) the Scharnhorst ever sailed again into the KW Kanal.

That was the last time according to me.

After this trip Scharhorst only remained into the Baltic sea area, mainly in Gotenhafen for the entire 1942.

On 1943 they tryied couple of times unsuccesfully to transfer the ship to Norway always thru Kattegat and Skagerrak, so around Denmark and never again thru the KW kanal,.. at the third trial they succeeded.

If you want to make Scharnhorst diorama with the Op. Frontheater ( I assume you know it was the famous dark grey overall with white bow and stern ) than you have to evaluate a Gotenhafen harbour scenario,... not the KW Kanal.

Here my Scharnhorst drawings :

http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/scharnh ... _1943.html

Bye Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:01 pm 
OK Antonio, thanks again.

Fran.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:10 am 
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Here's an idea i have been playing with.

Taking the 1/700 Tamiya Scharnhorst and doing a partial reconstruction to reflect a possible regunned version with 15 inchers in 1943. The modification would include:

1) Removal of aircraft catapult and building a new platform on top of the hangar roof.

2) Switch the aircraft handling cranes with the aft most 15cm mountings so that they can reach the deck area by turret Caesar.

3) Remove the aft most 10.5cm mounting to clear this deck for a raised landing platform for a Flettner helicopter. The landing platform would have the stern swastika air recognition symbol.

4) Exchanging the 3x 11 inch main turrets for 3x 15 inch main turrets from a Tirpitz kit.


Paint scheme would be from Scharnhorst in Operation Ostfront.

Remove all of the 10.5cm and the 15cm mountings. Alter the dual 15cm turrets to look similar to the dual 12.8cm DP mountings being developed for the 36c class destroyers. The forward and aft dual 12.8cm turrets will replace the dual 15cm mountings. The single 15cm turrets will be altered to resemble the more box like turret for the single 12.8cm turret developed for destroyers and will remain in the same position. The 6 10.5cm mountings above the main deck will be replaced with single 12.8cm weapons to give the new Scharnhorst a total of 18 DP weapons (to be taken from the Z-Class kit). This should be a better layout than the mixed 15cm and 10.5cm design.

Flak layout:
6 2cm flakvierling- (2x forward 12.8cm turrets roofs, 2x on the hangar bulkheads, 2x near the stern)
7 3.7cm single flak- (2x deck between turret B and the conning tower, 2x flanking turret C, 3x smokestack platform)
14 3.7cm dual flak- (2x turrets B&C roof top, 2x behind second breakwater, 2x on the bridge, 4x by aft range finder, 2x on main deck below new helicopter landing platform, and 2x on new platform in place of the aircraft catapult)

Total of 20 2cm barrels and 35 3.7cm barrels to go with the DP heavy flak...should be a nightmare for British airmen on a bomb run!

Then there is just the job of creating a Flettner helicopter.


I don't think i will try to tackle the lengthened bow like Vlad did with his reconstructed Gneisenau.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:52 am 
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Ciao Mr. Grumpy and all,

a very nice idea :smallsmile:

I agree about main and secondary guns and with the camo selection too.

My suggestion will be to evaluate 3 other things on your modifications :

1) Airplanes, Ok for the helicopter, but as Regia Marina battleships did I would evaluate instead of an Arado 196 on the catapult ready position a Focke Wulf 190 without floatings but with addittional fuel containers.
This can give a great defensive possibility agaist attacking slow torpedo bombers.
Than it can be landed on ground airports of course, like the Italian thought being possible.
Why not in Artic waters within range ?
Than you have other airplanes on your hangar as required.

2) A/A guns, at the end of the war Kriegsmarine selected the 40 mm Bofors being the best against well protected Allied airplanes.
So every remaining battleship was equipped with a mix of 20 mm Vierling and 40 mm Bofors.
A still alive KM A/A Director Officer of Tirpitz ( Dr. Heinz Hellendorn ) confirmed this to me.

3) Radars, you must use the FuMo 26 large 6x3 meters matress antenna, the FuMo30 Hohentwiel and FuMo212 Wurzburg parabolic antenna too, reference Tirpitz 1944 last status.

This should be the best status, ..... for Scharnhorst too,.... on late 1943 if they had done all the possible works ....

Happy modeling ...Bye Antonio :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:53 am 
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Thanks Antonio.


Pitroad has some FW-190s in their Luftwaffe set. I just like the idea of the first operational helicopter rather than a traditional aircraft. I just have to build the Flettner, though it should be more fun that way.


I had figured on the FuMO 26 on the radar suite on top of the conning tower with FuMO 4 receivers up there as well. FuMO 30 on a platform attached to the main mast like Tirpitz. I was also thinking of the FuMO 81 Berlin on top of the mainmast like Prinz Eugen. I can use one of the FLAK directors from Tirpitz and use it for a FuMo 212. Voyager's Tirpitz set has this radar included. I was thinking of putting it on top of the hangar. Then i was thinking of either a FuMO 26 or 27 for the aft director.


I was just selecting FLAK i can find in 1/700. WEM's, Eduard's, and Lion Roar do not have the 4cm bofors in their PE sets. WEM has it in their 1/400 set but not 1/700. I am either going to use the Flyhawk single/twin 3.7cm 42/43 mountings or the WSW resin versions. I am not quite up to scratch building a large number of miniature flak mountings. Beggars cannot be choosers so to speak.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:49 am 
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Ciao Mr. Grumpy,

my pleasure to have helped... :smallsmile:

YES, the FW 190 on catapult and the helicopter should give your model a better solution for active airplane reaction to torpedo bombers and close range recognition,.. than on the hangar they would have had other FW190 and Arado 196 too.

Radars, if you follow Tirpitz 1944 and Prinz Eugen 1945 latest radar set you will be OK,..so FuMo26 for range and artillery, Fu MB4 Sumatra active, FuMo81 and FuMo30,...plus Wurzburg too...and you will be ok.

Maybe you can find the 40 mm Bofors,..that will be super.

YES, you will consume lot of kits,..but the result will be superb :thumbs_up_1:

Ciao Antonio :smallsmile:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:03 pm 
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Somebody posted this link on bismack class forum:

http://images.google.com/images?q=scharnhorst+source:life

It has some Life magazine photos of the Scharnhorst during her commisioning. Best of all, they are in color and show hard to find places on the Scharnhorsts funnel and rear of the bridge superstructure.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:10 pm 
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Grumpy,

Just thought about your situation - you might find it in PE dealing with the Prinz Eugen, one of the few ships, off the block, to be built using the 4cm Bofors guns. Though those are only the singles, you could also cannibalize US Mounts with a little tweaking to get twin mountings. Prinz had single Bofors on the turret rooves, you might be able to pull it off, or else just use a Flakvierling.

Thought I'd toss you input, even if it's been a few months. Don't forget, they would have given the Ugly Twins a bow extension to deal with the wet deck syndrome. I didn't know about it until I'd already finished mine, among other inaccuracies I have on mine.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:38 pm 
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Without meaning to detract from this thread, but I have never understood the apparent animosity many modelers harbor toward these ships in their original guise. They seem handsome enough in their early form and certainly convey a sense of power, even without their clipper (and later, Atlantic) bows and funnel caps.

I hope the new Time/Life photographs will go a long way toward raising their "as-built" appeal, and how they stood out with their bright grey paintwork and colorful aircraft/jack/ensign adornments. I can't help but think they lost much of their "freshness" after modification, particularly Gneisenau.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:20 pm 
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RNFanDan,

there's northing wrong with the way they look as built or at least i have no quarrels there. They just look more predatory with the refits.

Sauragnmon,

yeah, i looked into the single 40mm bofors. I think Niko has some available through Pacificfront...a pack of 5 is $10-15.

I am reading a history of German Flak from 1914 to 1945 (amazon.com). At least the authors research showed that the Germans preferred the 37mm weapon to the 40mm. Their later versions of the 37, had double the rate of fire (claimed) than the 40 and had higher velocity. That should be why they built the 37 for land and naval use. Well, they do look somewhat alike so the 37 could be in a way, a slightly scaled down cousin of the 40. The 37 is more uniquely German rather than the 40 with its connection to the USN. I haven't even started buying items for this project since there are too many others already sitting in their boxes unopened. I've looked at a lot of pics and diagrams to figure out what i can do with a 'What-if refit' in 1943.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:24 pm 
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Hi!

What colors would you recommend for modeling Scharnhorst for the second cammo here:
http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/scharnhorst/paint_schemes/paint_scharnhorst_1943.html

I mean what paint numbers for instance of Gunze or MM paints?

Thanks in advance!


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 11:33 am 
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Great Photo guys,
Any way Are scharnhorst and Gneisenau Twin sisters or are the just sisters? IM just asking? Scharny ws the first to be laided down and launched and Gneisenau was the first to be commissioned right?
Nikki

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 3:19 am 
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If you meant launched or commissioned at the same time, then no, they were not twin sisters. They were just sisters. Like many pairs of sisters, they grew less alike as they aged.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 1:57 am 
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I have a question and need some input from you guys. I am working on a CAD model of the Scharnhorst and ran into this dilemma.

This is from the best set of Scharnhorst drawings I can find:
Image

This is the deck below Scharnhorst's main boat racks on each side of the funnel. My question is about the rows of circles just outside the funnel area. What are these? I had no clue until I saw Steve Wiper's Tirpitz book and found some images of the 105mm ammo hoists. Are the circles in the drawing meant to be ammo hoists? From navweaps.com:

Image

At first I thought so, so I did some models that I thought would best represent the hoists in that configuration:

Image

Now I am not so sure. There are two sets of circles, one in front of the rangefinder tower and one behind, and both of them are in outside of intake vents (big red x's in drawing), leaving no real room for hoist hardware behind them. Also, according to the Koop and Schmolke drawings of the deck arrangements, the areas below them are crew bathrooms and boat hardware storage. So if they are not ammo hoists, what are they?


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:33 am 
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I might be going out on a limb, but I would imagine that the framing line around it is not simply the groundplate, but instead the marking for a wall, to protect the munitions that are up in the hoists from frag and such, lest one good round cause those munitions lifts to turn into a fireworks display.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:39 am 
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I thought about that, but the middle image in my previous post is Tirpitz's ammo hoists and they didn't have any walls around them.


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