The Ship Model Forum

Thank you both. There are several books I want to get about the attack/ships I don't have yet, but haven't had the chance to buy yet.

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-Abram

A very good one that doesn't necessarily cover the attack, but does highlight the damage the battle-line suffered at Pearl is...

http://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Salv ... 1591145406

Resurrection: Salvaging the Battle Fleet at Pearl Harbor.

In particular, I recall (it's been a while since I've read it) it goes into significant detail about the struggles with salvaging West Virginia and Oklahoma since both were so catastrophically damaged by the torpedoes.

That's a book I actually have, or did have. I bought it, read it, (even left a review on Amazon I think) and then let someone borrow it and both the book and the person disappeared. So it's on my list to buy again. I also own and have read (a couple times): Descent Into Darkness-Pearl Harbor 1941:A Navy Diver's Memoirs.

Two of the books I'm looking at getting are:

Trapped at Pearl Harbor: Escape from Battleship Oklahoma

Battleship Oklahoma BB-37

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-Abram

I've read both of those. I believe it's the 2nd book where I read about the failed attempts at counter flooding.

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Martin

"Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." John Wayne

Ship Model Gallery

I may be overthinking something that has a bunch of big unknowns, but I tend to think that she rolled faster for a variety of reasons. Tempo of hits, placement of hits, age of design are all important factors. I marked up up her Booklet of General Plans to show the torpedo defense system a bit better here and here and there's a plot of the torpedo hits and order in there as well. First two shots were on the torpedo blister but below the armored belt (less reinforcement) and probably compromised most of the torpedo defense system right then and there. Actually, if you haven't found a copy yet I would highly recommend Seven Seconds to Infamy as it also covers the torpedo damage to Oklahoma and Maryland.

California wasn't sealed well and water was able to penetrate more evenly. The big take-away from California's sinking was that her torpedo defense system was not defeated but compromised due to all of the open inspection plates.

(Side note, I found the bit about the external compartment changing to liquid after Pearl in the note at the bottom of page 12 of Camifornia's Damage Report)

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Thanks Tracy,

For any interested I found this,... http://historyinfotos.com/2015/11/30/bb ... -oklahoma/

Mick

Well, since they're ripping off other people's stuff I don't feel bad embedding one of the photos they ripped off from that "Seven Seconds to Infamy" article I mentioned:



While a good visual of the roll, I suspect she's too high in the water in the second and definitely third frame. I started those posts on the torpedo defense system a while back to try and figure out if it was possible to figure out when and if she might have grounded on the bottom before going all the way over. Not enough data and too many variables to finish at this time.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

Not trying to propagate "stolen" material, just a lot of photos in one place caught my attention. My original query was for the purpose of modeling. I was not trying to join in a theoretical discussion of the sinking.

Mick

PS

Since it is up, I would agree That the above illustration is inaccurate as to waterline in frames 2 & 3. My guess the illustration is just to form a rough Idea.
The loss of buoyancy would have set her deeper in the water. Not trying to sound arrogant, but that would be an absolute. The ship could not possibly continue to rotate on the longitudinal axis portrayed.
This has always left me pondering a possibility that the harbor bottom had been displaced by the explosions thus allowing the angle required for her to go over. On my part nothing more than conjecture, but I never thought the water was actually deep enough for Oklahoma to roll.

As far as the speed at which she sank, Just a laymans observation,.. That's a damn big hole, and bulkheads were compromised. In relation Bouvet, Capsized and sank in 2 minutes from one mine detonated at the bow.

Ok my (maybe misguided) two cents.

I wasn't trying to suggest you were complicit in any way, just for the record. I have a copy of the 1941 chart for Pearl Harbor and its approaches and Oklahoma is penciled in at an area that is between 42'--43' deep - her Action report lists a draft of 31'1", her 1941 Booklet of General Plans lists a nominal draft of 28'6". She was about two and a half feet lower in the water than planned to be.

This was why I tried to start figuring out flooding and position. How far did she have to heal over in those conditions before her armored belt was below torpedo hits? How do the upper decks play into things - well, if you look at the third deck, which is just above the *nominal* waterline by a foot or two, there are big long passages port and starboard and some large open spaces.

I'm pretty sure she grounded on the roll, but the bottom was soft mud (the Navy dumped crushed coral underneath her roll path when they righted her to help ensure she didn't just dig in and sink deeper) and the last couple of hits occurred when she was well heeled over and there's a good chance the explosive force exerted a downward force as well as sideways and probably helped kick her over and overcome any resistance the bottoming had. It's one of those "If I ever win the lottery" projects - I'm going to hire a team of ship designers and damage control officers to bone up on her design and try and determine from photos and reports as to the approximate penetration into the hull each hit provided. It won't solve any real questions, but would be fascinating to have a better understanding of.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

The book, "Parallel Fates," on the UTAH and OKLAHOMA notes that OKLAHOMA had conducted gunnery exercises on Friday, December 5. When she tied up on Friday, the crews proceeded to clean internal compartments and voids in anticipation of an inspection on Monday, December 8, delayed from Saturday. Because access to certain void areas required that inspection plates be unbolted, these were left open as were some watertight doors. The rapid flooding from the torpedo hits would have been increased as many internal compartments and voids were open. This most certainly contributed to the capsizing. The crew didn't have time to counterflood as did WEST VIRGINIA, whose inspection would have been on Saturday (if one had been planned) and who would have had more spaces secured.

I've been a guest to this forum since the very beginning and for some reason it's taken me this long to finally become a part of the group. So howdy y'all from san Antonio, Texas USA. My question about the Nevada is this, were her decks painted and if so what color? Like everyone else, I've seen a lot of post attack pics and with black and white photographs, fire damage and the position of the sun, it's hard to tell. I ask this because I've notice some folks are painting her decks and the Tennessee's 20 B deck blue. I would appreciate some insight. Does anyone have any hard evidence or is this a theory like the USS Arizona. To me, her decks do look painted.

Welcome!

To clarify, are you asking about Nevada or Pennsylvania? You have the former in the title, but the latter in the text.

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Oops! I mean the Nevada.

Hey fellow grape. V-4 div. USS Inchon LPH-12 80-83

Keith

There's a bit of info, though inconclusive, in the Nevada class thread: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=6515

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De quoi s'agit-il?

what about the color of Nevada's decks? They look painted to me. I've noticed a few modelers painting her decks 20 B deck blue. From all the info that's out there, 20 B deck blue wasn't in fleet wide use yet. I also know that the teak decks where to remain natural with the MS1 scheme. But maybe just maybe they painted them 5D dark grey or some sort of gray color. I don't believe we are looking at natural teak decks on the Nevada.

I've been quiet because I was looking for a photo - I thought I had a high-resolution scan of this image from her damage report, but I might just be blending all of the research I've done together. I do think it looks painted in this photo as the deck caulking is not as prominent as I would expect for a natural wood deck, but maybe it's fire/soot effects. I've never come across any official documentation that states which ship painted when, so we may be stuck with photo interpretation.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

I was hoping you'd be the man to respond Mr. white. With all the research you've done over the years on the Navy experimenting with different types of paints and how best to use them, I was hoping you'd know something I don't. Some also think not only were the Nevada's decks painted, but so were the Tennessee's. I definitely can't seem to find any good aerial views of the Tennessee right after the attack. Here is the aft section of the Nevada that I believe modeler Mr. Jeff sharp posted a few pages back. these deck are definitely painted, I just wish I could find out what color.

Jeff's spent an amazing amount of time going through video clips to find snippets we haven't had before. I'm just a researcher and don't really consider myself an authoritative source unless I have the documents to back up what I say, which I don't have in this case.

For what it's worth, there is a special group of records at NARA that contain the files for the damage reports that were issued during the war. I pulled Nevada's a couple of trips ago, but they were only for a later incident and there was nothing on the Pearl Harbor damage. I had hoped to find better copies of the photos in her damage report I've posted.

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Tracy White -Researcher@Large

"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman

USS NEVADA was painted in MS 1 on 7 December 1941. All vertical surfaces up to the level of the top of the funnel were painted 5-D Dark Gray. Above that level, all vertical surfaces were painted 5-L Light Gray. She also had a false bow wave (MS 5) painted in white. This was a transition period in painting for the USN. As such, NEVADA's horizontal surfaces, including the wood decks, were painted 20-B Deck Blue. The exceptions were the main turret tops: Turrets 1 and 2 were painted insignia red (to denote Battleship Division 1), Turret 4 was painted white (to denote Section 2), and Turret 3 was painted either 5-D Dark Gray or a medium gray (pre-war Deck Gray?). The ship's boats were painted 5-D Dark Gray with a wood trim except for the Captain's gig which had a white top. All main turrets had white blast bags.

This information was derived from a number of literature sources, comparison of B&W photographs, and conversations with other historians. I won't claim that the information is perfect, but I would put the confidence at 95% with the only uncertainty being the top of Turret 3. Several other period photographs taken in color show a medium gray, which may have been the case, but the original MS 1 stated that 5-D Dark Gray should be used. You may draw your own conclusion.

Good luck.