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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:51 pm 
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A couple other items that occurred to me:

That pipe on the stern crane's cables looks to be a removable thing that isn't visible in all earlier photos of Nevada. However, it is present in all the attack and aftermath shots.

Based on the uniformity of color between the planking and the metal fittings and plates in the attack aftermath photos, this being a prime example:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013632.jpg
I'd say the Nevada's wood deck was painted. What color, I have no idea. A medium blue or blue-gray perhaps.

Regarding the 5-D on Oklahoma, something I've been wondering: Wasn't it a collision with the Oklahoma that sent Arizona into the drydock for the visit that provided the possibility for her to be repainted in 5-S? If so, wouldn't the Oklahoma also need a drydock visit, affording the same repaint opportunity? Yet no one seems to dispute the Oklahoma's 5-D. (Granted, people often ignore the Oklahoma anyway. And maybe she was't banged up enough to need the drydock. Just something I've been puzzled over. If Oklahoma *did* go to drydock, and she wasn't repainted in 5-S, maybe Arizona wasn't either. Ah, the vaguaries of the final months of 1941 at the Pearl Harbor naval base - which matter not a whit to any but us ship geeks. :) )

In regard to the bow wave: We know Nevada had it. I haven't seen any shots of Oklahoma above water from the correct time period to prove or disprove it, and just because one sister had something doesn't gurantee the other did - see all the differences we've been discussing! But if she did have it, might Arizona, as the final member of the battle division all three ships were in, have also had a bow wave? (None of the ships in other BatDivs had them that I've noticed) All the photos I see of Arizona at the right time period are either distant, grainy Japanese photos, or shots where her bow is already submerged. If two members of a group look like they're speeding along, and the third looks like it's sitting still, it's not going to take long to realize that they're not actually changing position relative to each other. But it also allows for that moment of misjudgement. (I'm probably overthinking this - but the "why on this ship and not on the other" question makes me do that.)

Having recently noticed this on the Arizona and Pennsylvania build a club mate and I are working on, a check of photos revelas that there are also external avgas lines on Nevada both sisters. One side only on each, extending low on the bow to deck near the stern, and not following identical bend patterns.
Oklahoma had hers on the starboard side. See:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013718.jpg
And in this shot she has both the avgas line and the degaussing cable:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013701.jpg
(Could add this to the artwork)

Nevada had hers on the port:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013698.jpg
I can't see it in the photos after she was raised, but then her port side is so cruddy it's hard to see any detail.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:24 pm 
Regarding Oklahoma MS-1/MS-5.....She had the false bow wave (MS-5) as late as 03 Nov 1941. There is a photo of Nevada and Oklahoma moored together at PH in "The Way It Was Pearl Harbor, The Original Photographs", pg. 14. They are both in MS-1/MS-5.

Jerry Phillips


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Did the Nevada still have the observation platforms on the sides of the funnel (like Arizona) at the time of the attack? They are there in all the pre-attack photos, but I cannot make it out in any of the attack/post-attack photos.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Well I've gotten my Nevada drawings up to date so far. If you guys see any corrections needed let me know. Would there be searchlights or .50 machine guns on the top of the observation platforms on the funnel?

USS Nevada early 1941

USS Nevada Ms-1/Ms-5 1941

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:55 pm 
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Jerry Phillips wrote:
Regarding Oklahoma MS-1/MS-5.....She had the false bow wave (MS-5) as late as 03 Nov 1941. There is a photo of Nevada and Oklahoma moored together at PH in "The Way It Was Pearl Harbor, The Original Photographs", pg. 14. They are both in MS-1/MS-5.

Jerry Phillips


Found that page in an on-line review... excellent, that's conclusive! I'm going to have to track down a copy of that book now...

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:06 pm 
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ArizonaBB39 wrote:
Well I've gotten my Nevada drawings up to date so far. If you guys see any corrections needed let me know. Would there be searchlights or .50 machine guns on the top of the observation platforms on the funnel?

USS Nevada early 1941

USS Nevada Ms-1/Ms-5 1941


I'd expect there would be machine guns or nothing at all on the funnel platforms; I really doubt they'd've added more back on after moving all four to the mainmast platform. In the color shots from 1940, there's maybe a signal light there, or perhaps an MG. See:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013600j.jpg
After the January 1941 refit, something similar to Arizona's setup wouldn't be surprising.
By the time of the attack, it really looks like the entire housing was removed and the funnel left clean. See:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013600i.jpg

Another item: You could add the range clocks to the early 1941 drawing, and just the vestigial brackets for the range clocks to the later fit drawing, just below the tops on the vertical legs of the tripods. See:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013641.jpg
This should apply to the Oklahoma as well.

As for the waviness of the bow wave, go to:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5Y5LiR ... &q&f=false
And scroll down to the aforementioned 14th page. Oklahoma's is in fact a bit wavier than Nevada's - but neither is as wavy as the drawing. I think the reason that it looks like it dips down that wavy in this photo:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013619.jpg
is because a segment of the wave is obscured by black charring. Also from this photo and a few others, I'm trying to spot any sign of a 3" AA gun in the four intended tubs - I don't see any. The after action report makes no mention of them, though bomb injuries at 5" AA mount 1 ought to have also carried over to the men working the forward 3" mount - if there was one. No mention doesn't mean they weren't there... but I'm really suspecting Nevada had empty tubs.

- Sean F.


Last edited by SeanF on Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:25 pm 
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ArizonaBB39 wrote:
Well I've gotten my Nevada drawings up to date so far. If you guys see any corrections needed let me know. Would there be searchlights or .50 machine guns on the top of the observation platforms on the funnel?

USS Nevada early 1941

USS Nevada Ms-1/Ms-5 1941


I think your bow wave is a little to "wavy". Check out these links:

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_5.htm

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... -main.html

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:59 pm 
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look to the right of the rudder area in this link as different then yours. http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013671.jpg


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:22 am 
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Thanks for all the input guys!! I had decided to leave the funnel observation platforms off of the later 1941 drawing as I couldnt find it, thanks for confirming that. I'll change the bow wave as well, now that I have pictures of the actual ships. As for the rudder area the drawing I was basing mine off of is this one: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013751.jpg (Oklahoma 1941) and as you can see it is different than the late war drawing David posted (http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013671.jpg Nevada 1944), does anyone know which is correct? Or did Nevada look different in this area than Oklahoma?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:55 am 
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Greetings,

My name is mike and I'm new here.
I found this thread while looking for info on my project, a 1:72nd build of USS Nevada BB36.
The desire is to construct in what I term her second stage as she appeared through the 30's until post Pearl Harbor.

I have seen may fine drawings, most of which are profile.

My problem,... Plans are available for how she appeared post pearl Harbor. The hull lines should be the same, the main batteries should be located the same and very similar in appearance, and although the station on the forward tripod mast altered, I believe the mast itself remains in its previous location but have no evidence to support such.

What I am trying to find:

Drawings of all above deck structures, decks, platforms, weapons, machinery etc. that I can build from. I'm not extremely imaginative so they would need to be pretty close to actual. :)

Any help would be much appreciated.

And being the new guy looking for help I'm not trying to cause controversy, but I find it odd there is a photo dated 1 month prior to the attack showing Oklahoma in M1 parked next to Nevada in same.
What I mean to say is,.. that would leave only 1 of three possible explanations regarding her color scheme

a. She was repainted in the month before the attack
b. All of her paint somehow changed before she was righted
c. She was repainted between the time the photo displaying M1 was taken and the attack. And the Nov. 4 date showing her in M1 is incorrect.
I suppose there could be other possible explanations, but one thing for sure, she was not repainted while submerged.

Anyway, I have seen some beautiful artwork here, and a lot of technical detail, if anyone can help me in my quest it would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards

Mike


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:43 am 
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Aloha & welcome aboard! I'm a researcher who posts things from the national archives on my site (see the link in my signature). I have Nevada's damage report but have not posted it yet (planning a big Pearl Harbor update next month, but hers is large enough I probably will not get it done in time). Contained within the damage report are 12 damage plates, the most relevant of which (that I've reassembled) are below. E-mail me if you want to discuss further.

With regards to the camouflage, both were in Measure 1 with the Measure 5 bow wave at the time of the attack.


Attachments:
File comment: Damage Plate II
USS Nevada Pearl Harbor Damage Report Plate II.jpg
USS Nevada Pearl Harbor Damage Report Plate II.jpg [ 65.87 KiB | Viewed 4487 times ]
File comment: Plate IX
USS Nevada Pearl Harbor Damage Report Plate IX.jpg
USS Nevada Pearl Harbor Damage Report Plate IX.jpg [ 145.44 KiB | Viewed 4487 times ]
File comment: Plate X
USS Nevada Pearl Harbor Damage Report Plate X.jpg
USS Nevada Pearl Harbor Damage Report Plate X.jpg [ 67.72 KiB | Viewed 4487 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Thank you for the welcome, and many thanks for the plates. =) Some days on this path are frustrating and without results, others produce smiles. Thanks for the later.

On the camouflage, the only reason I question M1 for Oklahoma, is due to photos taken at the time of her righting. In particular these 3. Understanding that light conditions, reflections, shadows and exposure can all create difficulties with black and white photos, the following things struck me about this photo. The tones of other paint, the lower red, dark waist band and rusty cables as they contrast with the uniform hull color. The lighting is good as the shadow cast on the bow from an overhead cloud is easily defined.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013707.jpg

The above photo by itself perked my curiosity. The next photo seemed to confirm what the above suggested. The lettering at the stern of Oklahoma is in substantial contrast to the main body color

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013755.jpg

And the last, a full view of the starboard side in direct sunlight contrasting the righting towers, rigging and undersides of the ship.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013724.jpg

In all three photos, taken at three separate stages of her righting the same contrast appear. This taking place over several months with varying sun positions and times of day confirms that Oklahoma's main body color is in substantial contrast to the darker undersides, waist banding, rigging, towers, and her stern identification. All other photos of the process confirm the same, but their quality is poor enough, or distance great enough they could be debated.
I hope this is of some help.

Cheers!

Mike


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:32 pm 
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By the time of the righting, Oklahoma's upperworks had been completely submerged for quite some time so I wouldn't count on reading too much into her paint colors. As for the lettering, it wouldn't surprise me if 20 years or so of repeat application of black paint on those letters held on longer underwater than the 7 months or so of 5D paint that went over them. Speaking of which, as I recall a part of the reason for discontinuing 5D dark gray was that it weathered poorly, but I don't recall what exactly they meant by that. Does anyone know if it was an issue of excessively fast fading, poor adhesion and rapid wear, rapid peeling, or some combination thereof?

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Poor adhesion and rapid chalking.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:03 am 
Interesting concept, and good points made

I would not however be inclined to take stock in the notion the paint was "washed away",Nor will I say its impossible.

If adhesion problems caused the paint to "fall off" in one year submerged, I would believe the photos of Nevada at Pearl Harbor indicate her paint to be fresh. Adhesion would have been so poor that exposure to elements such as Utra violet, dramatic temperature cycles( tropical sun on a dark surface ) high humidity with a wet/dry cycle, oxygen, vibration and rain ( an almost daily occurrence) would have obvious signs of peeling in one month at 6 months the paint would be gone as much as the paint appears to be gone from Oklahoma in the salvage photos.
Once submerged, beit a hostile environment, it is a stable environment Temperature cycle is negated, ultra violet considerably reduced, wet/dry cycle eliminated vibration gone and the eroding properties of rain non existent. A paint prone to "chalking" would not exhibit that symptom in these conditions.
However, paint that was already oxidized would have the oxidized portions attacked immediately, the salt water would act as a solvent and the current would wash away the oxidized paint. In order for it to have an effect where it could completely remove the paint, the paint would have needed to be oxidized all the way through.
.
Regardless,... what I believe to be the color scheme for Oklahoma is immaterial to my purpose here.
That would be locating drawings photos construction information for Nevada.

Any knowledge of or ideas about where to look for such would be greatly appreciated. I might head over to Bremerton this week to see what I can dig up, I believe Nevada received a fair amount refit in that yard.


Cheers

Mike


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Guest wrote:
I might head over to Bremerton this week to see what I can dig up, I believe Nevada received a fair amount refit in that yard.


Unless you have REALLY good inside connections with the Yard I wouldn't bother. If you do, I would LOVE to talk with you to see if you could do some sleuthing... :big_grin:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:58 pm 
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Tracy White wrote:
Unless you have REALLY good inside connections with the Yard I wouldn't bother. If you do, I would LOVE to talk with you to see if you could do some sleuthing... :big_grin:


I wont know if that avenue is open until I get there.
If not, we may well cross paths at Sand Point.

Mike


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Also, I have heard Nevada was both welded and riveted. Anyone have information to confirm? If so what areas for each?

Mike


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Drop me a line either way. The PSNY PAO keeps insisting that everything was turned over to NARA, but we know based on photos in Paul Stillwell's "Battleship Arizona" book that this is not the case. Bremerton Navy Museum... nothing. The local library has some photos, but no textual or plans. I'll share what I've found at Seattle NARA with you, but the only plans the regionals have are ones that were included with reports; the regular ones were either all destroyed or sent back to DC.

I have nothing on the class's construction, just PA class & later.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:19 am 
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Tracy White wrote:
the regular ones were either all destroyed or sent back to DC.


Those words will always haunt me. At one point by unintentionally being in the right place at the right time I was given the opportunity to save a "reasonable" amount of drawings just days before their intended disposal. Unfortunately I did not have the resources required to procure them and barely the savvy to close the deal.


I have not tried Contacting NARA in Maryland as I have done so in the past. Not that they are hard to work with, its simply a matter of funding. If you were on the premises you could save research cost,.. but the pull charges and printing could squander a sizable amount. ie. hull lines as drawn in 1/4" outboard profile, deck plan etc. for a ship the size of Nevada 200 per sheet to scan/print.

Anyway I'll drop you a line in a little bit here, I'm slow at all this and need to check the mail.

Mike


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