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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:13 pm 
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You may wish to try your search using Hoche as an alternative to Hoshe.

Good luck,

Mac


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:17 pm 
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You can also look in your profile for the link that says "Search user's posts" and it'll allow you to search only for things that you posted.

That said, I've done all four (Hoche and Hoshe under the general Forum search, and as under your name), and it's not there.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:29 am 
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Thanks Timmy. I did that. I was sure Id find it as Id started the thread and still had its thread subject name on my computer. Bummer :( I should have asked to have the thread moved to casf. The infos a bit esoteric. Few would think the new Combrig Hoshe would have as big an error as planked decks when in fact they are steel. I just wish I could remember the name of the contributer who presented all the new info .

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:10 am 
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Bruno Gire....


I am sure he will pipe in shortly!

JIM B

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:51 am 
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Hello :wave_1:
I posted the remarks on Hoche steel decks.
Can't find them again on MW...
May I help you?

_Bruno Gire

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:38 am 
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Allan and Bruno - Bruno, I have your posts about Hoche's steel decks (but not deck colours - that's why I was silent until now) saved as 2 .txt files. If you don't feel like writing it all again, I can post them and you can edit them to your liking :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:48 am 
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That would be great... although I'd preferred finding back the original post... don't want to add confusion in this forum.
So... please...
_Bruno

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:52 am 
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That would be most helpful.

What I could do with being reminded about is what decks and catwalks are linoleum and which bits are steel. The only bit I can remember for sure is the wooden mid deck. and linoleum on the side walkways above the tumbelhome. AS for the rest IM not sure.

Specific questions would be . What colors are the walkways of the flying structures between the fore and aft deckhouses.

What color is the deck around the bridge and the rear structure of the ship and the admirals walkway. This appears to be steel and I doubt that theyd paint it cream as per the builders yard model. It would get filthy as soon as people walked on it..

Im sorry to bring this all up again but Id relied on that thread still being here to come back to . My Hoshe build stalling at the time when I found out about the deck errors. Now Im keen again I need your help . Which is very much appreciated :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Allan McBeath wrote:
The only bit I can remember for sure is the wooden mid deck. and linoleum on the side walkways above the tumbelhome. AS for the rest IM not sure.


Yes: I'm 100% OK for the fore and aft steel decks.

Here's a picture of fore deck which shows bare metal:

Image

BTW, the same at max speed... no comment

Image

As for the mid deck (i.e. the deck just above the secondary battery) I've no photographic evidence but I'm 90% OK for linoleum covered decks as they're more like servicing side platforms than true decks and it is coherent with the top weight saving concern.

The deck above (I call it upper deck), which is just above the row of rectangular old fashioned large windows and almost at the same level as the athwart ship main guns has a longitudinal wood planking (100% OK, photographic evidence)

The planked upper deck:

Image

Allan McBeath wrote:
What colors are the walkways of the flying structures between the fore and aft deckhouses.
What color is the deck around the bridge and the rear structure of the ship and the admirals walkway.


ALL decks and platforms and walkways above the upper deck are linoleum covered (100% OK). Bare or painted steel seems unlikely, as it would have been dangerous when wet.

Linoleum covered decks and platforms:

Image

Image

Pictures courtesy Jim Baumann.

Hope this helps
_Bruno

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Post no.1
by Bruno Gire » Jan 08, 2013

Hello,
I'm the guy who sent the answer on Steelnavy.
My thoughts are based on two sources:
- No photographic evidence of planked deck on fore deck
- A very detailed monography on Hoche writen 25 years ago by renowned French pre-dread specialist Luc Feron, who clearly state the Hoche model in Musée de la Marine, from which all models, including Combrig's are derivative is but wrong in many details, including the planked main deck.

Explanation for this is rather simple:
Hoche is somewhat unique in French building in that she was the first of a new type (compact, modern battleship).She has been built over a period of nearly 11 years because she was considered as a prototype by engineers... and a political target in the continuous fighting between High Navy Command (who wanted to counterbalance the battleship race between UK and Germany), and the Jeune Ecole (Young School) of officers who wanted to give away with large ships in favour of numerous small boats armed with torpedoes. These later lost their fight but started another race which led Britain to design ships to counter these small boats, thus giving birth to the modern destroyer... but that's another story.

In short: Hoche as been built with continuous changes for more equipment, modification, almost every month... She entered service as an overloaded hull splintered with unproven prototype equipment, a true floating laboratory with (IMHO) absolutely no fighting value, except to be a show-boat for the Navy.
No plans of the completed Hoche do exist in the Naval archives. The only set is a 1885 set of plans "as designed" which is held in microfilm at Vincennes. Pictures of Hoche easily show many differences from the plans.
The Musée de la Marine model was a "demonstration" model of the ship, as she would have been and was aimed at the High Command to "boost" support for her build. Hence the good looking planked deck, the festooned band above after turret, etc... which Combrig carefully reproduced.

The foredeck encountered many trouble and wasn't planked. At maximum speed (12 knots), the bow wave raised so high the whole deck was permanently submerged (thanks also to the ram bow which enhanced this and was cancelled on following ship Brennus), as Jim's picture show. During trials, the weight of this water caused some crash bending of the deck, damaging the sustaining "stanchions" below. Also the fore turret had serious watertight issues. OT but just for fun: to train the main turrets, one had first to raise it a few centimetres with electric motors as to clear the watertight brass joint, then train the turret using chain capstans and finally lower the turret in place, ready for firing... just try to imagine the time lapse between shots!
When entering service, Hoche had her top speed restrained to avoid damage... and was forbidden to fire transverse broadside with all barrels at a time... These guns trained on the same side would have made the ship... to capsize!

The Hoche follower, battleship Brennus was another miss (the first time she trained her guns on the same side, she took a 28° list!), but following unit became more standardized with less political pressure and better fighting units.

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Last edited by DariusP on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Post no.2
by Bruno Gire » Jan 08, 2013

The Hoche set of plans drawn and sold by the "Société des Amis du Musée de la Marine" (AAMM) has been done from the museum model... so it incorporates all the flaws of this late 19th Century model. However it can be used as the basic shapes and dimensions are AFAIK correct (I matched its hull lines against Hoche's original from 1882 and they are OK). I own one copy and I'm happy with this as it shows a lot of fitting details from this "exotic" period. IMHO as this is the only one complete and decent set of plans available, Combrig used it as a basis for their kits and they really did an excellent job.
The best way to proceed is to match this plan with pictures of the real ship (there are plenty of beautiful ones in the French archives and Jim will probably help you with this) and omit all the incorrect details.
The three major differences are in the planking, the festooned border around the platform above the after turret and the strange curved and holed pieces which support the after pair of the large boat davits. Other differences are smaller. In the full hull 1:350 version, the propeller is completely wrong but can be easily scratchbuilt. The underwater hull lacks both bilge keels, which is correct for this ship before her first reconstruction (this greatly explains her lack of stability).

One has to be very careful however about the pictures, as Hoche has been rebuilt at last four times during her career, mainly to reduce unacceptable top weight and to fit smaller and more powerful boilers (this particular refit induced the withdrawal of the large rectangular shaped funnel for smaller twin athwart-ship funnels)

I have this kit too and have it on my building list. As Alan, I'm experiencing trouble in wiping out the planked decks without destroying the delicate fittings around. I've started to design my own PE set to correct errors but I confess I've got close to "loose myself" among the numerous ones... so I'm in the way of "having to decide" to correct this and not that...

Luc Feron monograph has only general views (profiles), extracts from the original plans and profiles drawn by the author showing her appearance after each of her reconstructions. Plenty of text (in French) describing the lengthy and troubled period of her design and building.

Structure above aft turret:
On a Navy Plan drawn at Brest on May 29th, 1890 (i.e. after the REAL ship) the horseshoe area is labelled as "bastingage". Bastingage is nowadays the French generic word for railing, but before 1900 a bastingage still was a kind of double-railing where the crew stored rolled hammocks to use them as protection against small arms fire, as on earlier sailing man'o'war.

The outer ring is plain as pictures of the real ship prove. For the inner ring I'd suggest ordinary railing, but I've no proof.

This bastingage was added after the ship commissioning, as early pictures only show a flat platform with a single railing around. Pre-launch official plans (i.e. "as designed") show the same arrangement with a single searchlight in the platform centre.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Maybe this time this thread can be added to CASF "Calling all French Pre-Dreadnought fans" to make it persistent?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:24 pm 
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Yes please lets put this in CASF.
Thanks to all of you for being so helpful :)

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Last edited by Timmy C on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Done!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:59 am 
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Hello,

I am new in this forum.
For the last years I am working on a plan of the French Coast Defence Ship Furieux.
The basis for my plans are the articles in Warship International and some photos in internet.
Now I am searching for more information of the main weapons (the barbetts) and the lines and bodyplan.
For my reconstruction of the lines I used the drawing of the mainframe of the Furieux and the bodyplan of the Tonnerre.
On my mail to the Service Historique asking for plans a have got no answer.

Has anyone more information about this ship ?

Thank you

Bootsmann


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:44 am 
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Hello all,

When I filing the photos of French old warships, I found many photos have been incorrectly identified.
Mr. Richard Perkins' Recognition book give me an idea to make my own recognition tools to distinguish the ships of the same class. And I started doing this work a few days ago. Charlemagne is the first one. and all identification points based on referred to collected photos and original plans.

Saint Louis is easy to distinguish, because she has different funnels and fore-top.
It's very hard to distinguish Gaulois and Charlemagne, there is no remarkable differences between them, only a pipe and platform:

1. They have different platforms above fore-top. Gaulois' platform surrounded by metal wall. And Charlemagne's platform surrounded by railing.
2. There was a pipe appeared on the Right front of Gaulois’ 1st funnel. It wasn't appeared on the original plan, but this pipe really existed on the ship. and no one existed on Charlemagne.
3. Seems their gun barrels have different colors when they printed in two-tones.

Image

Gaulois
Image

Charlemagne
Image

Saint Louis
Image

Original Size pictures are following:
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/decemus ... iginal.jpg
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/decemus ... iginal.jpg
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/decemus ... iginal.jpg
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/decemus ... iginal.png


Last edited by decemus on Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:57 am 
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Now then :thumbs_up_1:

--that is very interesting and I shall study that in greater detail again later
Thank you for your detailed efforts :wave_1:

JIM B :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:04 pm 
Very interesting observations about the differences in the Charlemagne class ships. I have read many times that it is almost impossible to tell Charlemagne from Gaulois, so this is helpful.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Hey guys,

I've been trying to find out if Suffren's decks were lino. The drawings suggest they were, but there are precious few photos I can find from an angle that might confirm and none are clear enough. Does anyone know one way or the other?

Thanks

Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:07 pm 
The question about the decks of French predreadnoghts is a treacherous one. I was once scolded for posting photos of a model, which allegedly was incorrectly depicted. It was pretty traumatizing as I had no idea that anyone was using any other material than wood.

I took a quick look at my collection of battleship photos on dvds and found one that seems to show a linoleum deck around the rear turret. It might be steel but is definitely not wood.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:34 pm 
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does anybody read French as I have drawings of the Suffren of 1899 from the hacked French naval site as maybe it might tell if the decking had linoleum on it or not?


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