Calling all USS North Carolina & Washington fans

[falcon04]

Washington, certainly. Pics also in Warship Pictorial - back cover and inside. Should have noticed the "teepee" differences.

Interesting that Washington came from her last refit in Seattle in mid-September - where pics in the WP seem to show blue decks, to the Canal less than a month later with decks freshly holystoned !

I can hear it now ( Deck CPO's to the hands )- "Good news, the war is over - no more WestPac - start holystoneing the freshly painted decks !"

But at least the incessant chipping of paint would be over for a time ! A LOT of pretty happy guys on deck in their whites !

I wonder if she got the late '45 "neutral" grays - certainly can't tell from the badly color shifted pics.

[Tracy White]

It's not all that surprising the decks were cleared of paint that quickly; the prewar paint research I've done came across this memo that states a desire to allow for a quick return; also note that they used paints and not stains on battleships as the stains penetrated to wood, making it difficult to remove the color (which was why stains were used on carriers).

Also, I bet the paint chipping would not have decreased. It might have even increased as the leadership tried to find a replacement activity for all of the AA drills, etc.

[falcon04]

"But Chief, the civilians at Puget Sound just painted the whole d**n ship !!!!"

"Start yur chippin' & stop yur bitchin' "

Love the smell of fresh paint in the morning !

Thanks for your research on the use of paint vs. stain on the BB's.

Any thoughts as to the likelihood of the new "neutral" colors being applied at the September '45 refit ??

[Tracy White]

Any thoughts as to the likelihood of the new "neutral" colors being applied at the September '45 refit ??

It's a gray area.

I've been looking for any mention of paint stocks & shipments in 1941 and 45 in the Seattle branch of NARA, which holds much of the records for Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. Haven't found anything yet.

It's interesting that Measure 12 was to be Navy Gray, and Measure 22 was to be Navy Gray if Navy Blue was not available. I haven't been able to find any of the earlier documentation that says if Navy Blue production was to be stopped (likely, but on what day, how much stock did the various bases and ships have, etc.) so I don't know how long it could have been painted on ships at PSNS.

I tell you what though, I might have Washington's departure report for that overhaul, and if I do I'll look to see if it mentions paint; some did and some did not.

[jester63]

Does anybody know when the USS North Carolina's camoflage scheme changed from measure 32 to Measure 22? I am in the process of starting the 1/350th Trumpeter USS North Carolina, and was planning on painting it in measure 22. I am wanting to model it as she looked pre-Sept 2, 1945. Just not sure what measure she was in at the time. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Justin J

[Cliffy B]

Best I can tell she wore her dazzle scheme in 1944 and Ms-22 in 1945. From reading through her DANFS history listing she visited Pearl twice in those two years. MOST of the time a ship's camo scheme was changed at either Pearl or Mare Island or another "state side" base and only maintenance was performed at the forward bases like Ulithi. She visited the yard three times in between 1944 and the surrender. First, Pearl (rudder repairs) at the end of April '44. Second Puget Sound (overhaul) following the Marinas which lasted until November. Third, back to Pearl (overhaul) in April of '45 following Okinawa. She rejoined the fleet in time to do some more shore bombardment of the Home Isles before the Surrender in September.

From scouring the photos at NavSource it looks like she wore her dazzle camo through the middle of '45. There's a clear shot of her in March still in dazzle. Next photo isn't until July and it shows her with counter shading on the 16" barrels which wasn't done in the dazzle scheme. So somewhere between March and July she was re-painted which would indicate during her final yard period in Pearl before the end of the war. That's my best guess mind you.

So if you want to depict her during the narrow time frame of April to September of 1945 use Ms-22, pre-April use Ms-32.

Here's a really nice high-res shot of her at anchor in Ms-22 in 1945.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/0155013.jpg

So yeah, hope that helps. Sorry for the lengthy answer

[jester63]

Hey thanks Cliffy. That helps! I have been a fan of the battleships since I was just a little boy. So I don't mind the lengthy info! I love hearing information about them and learning as much as I can.

On the note of the North Carolina, is there alot of difference between the North Carolina and her sister the Washington? I know that the Washington only ever wore the measure 22 scheme for most of the war. If there wasn't to much difference I could always model her after the Washington. I guess I just would like my North Carolina to depict the ship earlier in the war, but I have never done the measure 32 scheme, and am nervous to try it for fear of destroying the model! lol.

Is Measure 32 hard to do? Is there a easy way of doing it? I have built models off and on since I was a boy, but I have only started to get ok at model building in just the past couple years.

Thanks in advance,
Justin J

[Russ2146]

Ship Camouflage.com data base charts it this way

55 North Carolina North Carolina 1941-MS 1/MS 2 1942-MS 12/MS 12 Mod 1943-MS 21 1944-MS 32 / 18d 1945-MS 22
56 Washington North Carolina MS 1 MS 12 Mod/MS 22 MS 22 MS 22 MS 22
So that matches what Cliffy observed in the photos
From Naval History Command:
A version of Camouflage Measure 32, Design 18D, a scheme originally intended for destroyers, was applied to USS North Carolina in September 1943. The ship retained those patterns until the summer of 1944. She emerged from overhaul in late September of that year wearing a modification of her original Design 18D camouflage. Colors remained the same, but the design's basic shapes were slightly altered. North Carolina remained in this scheme until sometime in 1945.
When first commissioned, North Carolina was painted in peacetime gray. She was given Measure 2 camouflage in the summer of 1941. Later in that year she was repainted in the blotchy patterns of Camouflage Measure 12 (Modified), which she retained until repaired in the fall of 1942. The ship spent the last part of 1942 and much of 1943 in the overall dark paint of Measure 21, then received her Measure 32 patterns. She finished her active career in the horizontal "two-tone" paint of Camouflage Measure 22. The site has the drawings of the scheme
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-c ... 3--bb3.htm

Jun 44.jpg (7.09 KiB) Viewed 349 times

[Cliffy B]

Hey Russ, I didn't realize that she had her Ms-32 design altered so that raises a few questions. The Trumpy kits depict her in Ms-32 and currently North Carolina herself is painted in Ms-32. Which version of Ms-32? Are either of them correct or are they an amalgam of the two designs? Must drive the judges crazy...

I have some shots of North Carolina when I visited her about 2 years ago if they'd help.

One thing I do know is that on her after main battery fire control tower she carried a pair of searchlights on a platform back there from commission until sometime in late 1944, early 1945 when she had them replaced by a pair of twin 20mm Oerlikons. There were some other little mods to the superstructure as well so you might want to do some more research after you pick the specific time period you'd like to depict her in. But that's only if you're striving for absolute 100% accuracy.

If you want some good books full of detailed photos of her look for:

Warship Pictorial # 29: North Carolina Class Battleships By: Steve Wiper
ISBN: 0-9745687-8-3
Retail $18

USS North Carolina: Technical Reference 1 By: Randall S. Shoker
ISBN: 1-930127-10-3
Retail $20

The Tech Reference comes with a set of 1:350 plans from Floating Drydock depicting her in her 1944 fit which would be perfect! For about $20 but its WELL worth it. It also has a breakdown of the two versions of Ms-32!!!!! I highly recommend getting both books.

[Russ2146]

Design 18D was created for Destroyers and modified for, hence the Version 11, NC as noted in http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-c ... 3--bb3.htm

The page in the above link does have the NC camouflage design plan

[jester63]

Is Measure 32 something you can paint with spray paint and masking tape, or is that something you need to you use an airbrush for? I don't have an airbrush at the moment but hope to in the future. Is there a certain technique to getting all the colors to match up from the Hull to the decks, and superstructure?

Honestly, I would have no problem Modeling the kit after the USS Washington, but I am not entirely sure of the differences between the two sisters. I have viewed many photos of the two and have failed to come up with any notable differences. Are there any? If so what are they?

Sorry if I seem to be rambling on about this, but I just want to make it as accurate as I can.

[Bigdaddy Mark]

Just a quick note about the NC Camo paint in Wilmington. She is painted the same for port and starboard. I had these pictures and it messed me up when I painted mine. I thought they were two different camo jobs, not port and starboard. Oh well live and learn.

[Cliffy B]

Is Measure 32 something you can paint with spray paint and masking tape, or is that something you need to you use an airbrush for? I don't have an airbrush at the moment but hope to in the future. Is there a certain technique to getting all the colors to match up from the Hull to the decks, and superstructure?

Honestly, I would have no problem Modeling the kit after the USS Washington, but I am not entirely sure of the differences between the two sisters. I have viewed many photos of the two and have failed to come up with any notable differences. Are there any? If so what are they?

Sorry if I seem to be rambling on about this, but I just want to make it as accurate as I can.

No you don't need any fancy tools, just a mess of masking tape. The cam scheme was pretty angular with a few gentle curves. Just tape the heck out of it and hit it with paint however you wish. I'd suggest you paint it in steps rather then assemble the whole thing and then try and mask the scheme. Assemble the main superstructure sections and then dry fit them to the hull. Look at the drawings of the camo, take a pencil, and draw out the shapes. Then mask and paint. I've found that Tamiya tape works very well, leaves no residue, and comes in a small widths. 3M Blue Painters tape works as well but only comes in large widths so you'd have to do a lot of cutting.

Don't ever feel bad about asking questions man. That's the purpose of this place. Post photos as you go and keep asking questions when needed. We're a nice little bunch

[jester63]

Thanks for the tips Cliffy. I am not sure why but I never thought about using a pencil to mark where the tape should go. I knew I wouldn't want to assemble it all then try to mask it, but I thought I would have to dry attach it, and then try to mask it. Using the Pencil will definitely be so much easier! Thanks !

Something else I was curious about is, I can only see the camo from the sides, but what does it do around the front of say like the superstructure, turret placements, and decks? Do you just go half and half from side to side or just try to blend it together from side to side?

Also, I have been pondering a USS Washington build, because I have always had a big interest in Guadalcanal and the major Naval battles that took place there. I know that the Washington, South Dakota, and four Destroyers were the force that took on the Big Battleships Kirishima, and Hiei. The Washington sent the Kirishima to the bottom almost singlehandedly. I thought it might be neat to do a diorama of that battle! Is there alot of difference between the North Carolina and the Washington? Would I have to make serious changes in the Trumpeter kit?

[Russ2146]

If you oopen the Naval History site I posted above and scroll down, you will handy-dandy camo diagrams. If you click on them they will appear full size and you should suddenly notice bow and stern views.

[Tracy White]

Is there alot of difference between the North Carolina and the Washington? Would I have to make serious changes in the Trumpeter kit?

You would have to both back-date and modify the model as the ships were different at the time of the battle than the time represented by the kit. The changes are mostly superficial, but I don't have a list with me.

[phil m]

Jester63
go to the gallery and look up Ed McDonald's Washington. He gives some prety precise instructions for a Guadalcanal Washington


http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

[jester63]

Wow, that model of the Washington looks amazing! I personally have never done any scratchbuilding. I would say I am only an average model builder, and have never taken a shot at that. In fact I am not even sure how you go about building that kind of stuff. What is used to make the shields, Gun tubs, etc...?

Also was wondering. Was the measure 32 18d scheme on the North Carolina applied to decks too? In the photos of her at sea I didn't see it on her decks, but in the drawings it had it appearing on her decks also. Just wanted to make sure that I just maybe wasn't seein it..?

[Tracy White]

Ship model scratch building is fairly easy in that above the main deck you're mainly dealing with flat sides. It's just a matter of figuring out good ways and patterns of cutting sheet plastic and then gluing it together. Check out our Scratchbuilding section if you haven't already.