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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:54 am 
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Debating whether to post this here, on the main forum, or open up a new "Calling all Pennsylvania fans" topic... but for now, here goes:

I've seen conflicting references to which position Pennsylvania had in BatDiv2 in the later half of 1941, when she left BatDiv 1 in a swap with the Oklahoma. In the new Classic Warships book on the OS2U Kingfisher, she's placed as #3, but elsewhere I've seen mention of her as #1. (California is consistently #2, and the hints of white paint on the top of turret 4 in post-attach photos, plus the aircraft number (2-O-5) of one of her damaged planes in the after-action report bear this out) So... does anyone know anything further on whether Pennsylvania or Tennessee was the flagship of BatDiv2 at the time of the Pearl Parbor attack? (It's the difference between a blue or red turret #4! :) )

- Sean F.
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Last edited by ModelMonkey on Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:37 pm, edited 8 times in total.
Went ahead and split BB-38 posts into a separate thread.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:16 pm 
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Here's a color chart I did according to information I got from Don Preul or Dana Bell:
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... kings.html

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"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Tracy White wrote:
Here's a color chart I did according to information I got from Don Preul or Dana Bell:
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... kings.html


I know... I was checking against that last night, hence my question :) I believe Dana Bell wrote or contributed to the new Classic Warships OS2U book (I'm at work now and don't have it with me at the moment), which conflicts with the chart in regard to Tennessee and Pennsylvania's positions. As the chart is a couple years old, I'm wondering if new information has come to light or if the new book is in error.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:26 pm 
Dear Sean and Tracy,

I think our records are in agreement on the original section/ship color of Pennsylvania and her aircraft. The ship's OS2U-1s were delivered when Pennsylvania was still part of Battleship Division One; as the third ship in that division, the ship color was True Blue on Turret 4, and with the same section color on the Kingfishers (numbered 1-O-7, 1-O-8, and 1-O-9).

When the ship moved to BATDIV TWO during 1941, my notes suggest she became the third ship in her new division, retaining the blue on Turret 4, though the aircraft were by that time camouflaged and wore no section colors.

I'll pull out my documentation tomorrow and see if I've got that mixed up.

Sorry if I've caused some confusion here!

Cheers,

Dana


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:21 am 
I don't have much confidence in the records I've found here at home today. I'll get down to the Archives before the week's out and see what the deck logs for Pennsylvania and Tennessee report, then I'll get back with what I've found...

Cheers,


Dana


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Is that anything the deck logs would mention, or would it be better to check the records of Com Bat BatFor? ir ComBatDivOne?

Regardless, thanks for your time on the matter!

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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:27 pm 
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There's no question about Pennsy previously being #3 of BatDiv1 - heck, the photo on page 1 of the OS2U book proves it, with the ship's name and 1-O-7 code number on the fuselage. :)

A couple other directions to approach this from occurred to me, though may be dead ends as well. One is aircraft markings - though it appears both Pennsy and Tennessee had their Kingfishers ashore during the attack and pretty much all were destroyed. The after action report from the California was kind enough to list the code number of the aircraft she lost, but no such luck with the others. There are those shots out there of Arizona's recovery of a Kingfisher from the later half of 1941, but I haven't encountered anything similar for BB-43 or 38. Also, perhaps there may be a clue in the fact that although she was the Pacific Fleet flagship the whole time, Pennsylvania was not the BatDiv1 flagship when in that division. Perhaps there was a policy of the fleet flagship not pulling double duty as division flag?

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:49 pm 
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If you Clifton Simmons book 'U.S.S. Tennessee in World War Two' you will find a pic on page 13 that shows a Kingfisher on Ford Island, 10 Dec. The plane carries the numbers 2-0-3 on the fuselage.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:18 pm 
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Most likely the third aircraft of Oklahoma.

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-Barbara Tuchman


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:18 pm 
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Tracy White wrote:
Most likely the third aircraft of Oklahoma.


If it were pre-reorganization, Oklahoma's aircraft should have been 2-O-4 through 2-O-6; post re-organization, Oklahoma's aircraft should be 1-O-7 through 1-O-9. Post-reorganization, Kingfisher 2-O-3 should belong to either Tennessee or Pennsylvania; if the ship's name is on the fuselage, we may have found a smoking gun. I'll check my copy of this book when I get home tonight.

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:05 pm 
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I can't make out a ship name regarding this pic from Simmons book


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:53 pm 
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Jon C Ryckert wrote:
I can't make out a ship name regarding this pic from Simmons book


I'm looking at my copy of that book now. Yeah, there's no way to make out a name on the plan itself; it's definitely in the immediate aftermath of the attack, and all we have to go on is if the caption is correct and the plane indeed belongs to Tennessee. According to the caption, the photo came from the "USS Tennessee Remembrance Museum Photo Archives, the Lee Dawson Collection." Since a plane numbered 2-O-3 would have definitely belonged to Tennessee for about 4 years prior to the reorganization, it could be an assumption on the part of the one who cataloged the photo, not realizing that the number now belonged to the Pennsylvania... or it may be correct, and the number still belonged to the Tennessee. Alas, no smoking gun... just that puff of gas they use to clear out the remnants of the last shot...

- Sean F.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:42 am 
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Aloha All,
Last night, Tracy White called me and in the course of the conversation, I said that each BB had FOUR Kingfishers...yet this AM my notes proved me wrong:

In the early 1980s, I made a trek to Vought Aeronautics and the company historian gave me a nice tour of his office...and as the xerox machine was broken (my luck)...I hand wrote the OS2U-1 and -2 'dispositions and delivery' dated 31 Aug 1941...here is a portion:

Bu No
1682 WVA VO-4
1683
1684

1685 CO VO-4
1686
1687

1688 MD VO-4
1689
1690

1691 FLAG UNIT

1692 PA VO-1
1693
1694

1695 AZ VO-1
1696
1697

1698 NV VO-1
1699
1700

1701 FLAG UNIT

1702 CA VO-2
1703
1704

1705 TN VO-2
1706
1707

1708 OK VO-2
1709
1710......delivered 30 Sep 1940

the list ends with 3130 delivered 14 Jul 1941

I could NOT locate such a list for the next delivery to the BBs at Vought. Tsk! Of interest, the OS2Us assigned the BBs on 7 Dec 1941 were NEW OS2Us not the 'dash one' cited above!

The reorganization of the Battle Fleet is not cited above...yet there are those here who may know!
Cheers,
David Aiken, a Director: Pearl Harbor History Associates, Inc. http://www.pearlharbor-history.org/


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:40 pm 
Traffic held me up today, but I got the deck logs pulled for both ships. Unfortunately, due to schedule problems, I'll have to wait until tomorrow to look inside those deck logs.

On the earlier question of why use deck logs to determine a ship's position, I've found the division is usually listed on the first page of each month's log, with an extra notation for the division's flagship. A quick scan of 24 pages should give me the basic data - a scan inside the pages of any month that lists a change brings the exact day of the change. But the real reason I like to use deck logs is that I'm always fascinated by the strange details that pop up from time to time.

As for the question about how many aircraft were assigned to each ship at the beginning of the war, with a few exceptions, each battleship had three, each Omaha-class cruiser had two, and all the treaty cruisers (heavy and light) had four.

More tomorrow night...

Cheers,


Dana


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:23 pm 
Well THAT was a fun morning. Deck logs are always a blast, even if it seems a bit odd to be docking someone's pay $15 for returning late from shore leave, only to be fighting for your lives two weeks later - war sure can change your perspective

That said, there is no doubt that, at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, Tennessee was the flagship (Red) of BatDiv Two and Pennsylvania was the third ship (Blue).

I started by reading the logs for Pennsylvania, finding that the ship moved from BatDiv One to BatDiv Two sometime in late May 1941 - oddly, the exact date of the change isn't in the deck log. The ship's records show aircraft 1-O-7, 1-O-8, and 1-O-9 in use from January all the way through 23 May 1941 during exercises at sea. Back in port, the "three aircraft" (no numbers listed) were hoisted out for temporary duty at NAS Ford Island on 26 May.

On 31 May, Pennsylvania hoisted aboard aircraft 2-O-7, 2-O-8, and 2-O-9. (The deck logs do not mention the transfer to BatDiv Two that must have occurred during that 5-day period - I suspect I happened on 27 May when Kimmel "hoisted down" his personal flag for a short period.) The same three aircraft appear in the ship's records until 25 November; no aircraft are mentioned from that date until the ship entered drydock on 1 December.

I spent much less time looking at Tennessee - just enought to confirm that aircraft 2-O-1 thru 2-O-3 were reported aboard from January through November 1941.

Please excuse any typos in this posting - I lost my reading glasses at the Archives, and it's a bit tough to see the screen just now. Anyway, I hope this helps!

Cheers,


Dana


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Sorry to hear about the glasses Dana, but thanks for the research! I've updated the chart.

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"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Eureka! Thanks Dana!
This MAY help isolate the USS PA change from the "dash one" Kingfishers to the "Dash Three" came twixt 26 May and 31 May 1941....and that these were off loaded on 25 Nov 1941 in preparation for dry dock...
Yea!
Mahalo nui loa,
Sincerely,
David Aiken


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:05 pm 
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Dana Bell wrote:
As for the question about how many aircraft were assigned to each ship at the beginning of the war, with a few exceptions, each battleship had three, each Omaha-class cruiser had two, and all the treaty cruisers (heavy and light) had four.


I'd meant to add this earlier but forgot until just now; Dana's statement is backed up by a document I posted; look at the difference in numbers for the squadrons attached to CruDiv Three versus CruDivs Eight and Nine:
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Misc/O ... #BatFor_CL

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"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
-Barbara Tuchman


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:42 am 
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Question regarding BB-38 Pennsylvania:

I've read her 1943-1945 paint scheme was navy blue hull and deck blue decks. How was the superstructure? Navy blue on all surfaces, only on the vertical, or ??? I've only seen B&W on the navsource website, except for the one color shot that only shows her from the front/side and doesn't reveal the deck color or if deck blue was also used on the superstructure horizontals.


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 Post subject: Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:56 am 
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She was Measure 21.

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