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Which were the best 1930's pre-war battleships built?
Poll ended at Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 am
King George V class (Britain) 17%  17%  [ 4 ]
Jean Bart class (France) 13%  13%  [ 3 ]
Bismarck class (Germany) 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Vittorio Veneto class (Italy) 9%  9%  [ 2 ]
North Carolina class (United States) 13%  13%  [ 3 ]
South Dakota class (United States} 43%  43%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 23
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:54 pm 
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If one were to get up close and personal to the Barbett armor you would probably encounter a somewhat irregular surface. This would vary somewhat depending on the armor vendor. For example Missouri has much rougher armor than her sisters. By modeling standards it is "smooth". The wooden deck around the Barbett will scarf into a curved sectioned piece, much like around hatch coatings and bulkheads.

Nice photos!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:00 am 
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Does anyone have the blueprints for the 5"/38 twin Turret Gunhouses?

I am working on a combination of Blueprints and 3D model parts (not affiliated with the company with the similar name.... At least not unless they want to buy the products i make to produce) for a conversion for the 1/700 Trumpeter USS South Dakota, and I want to make some new 5"/38 turrets for the conversion work.

I read somewhere that the 5"/38 dual turrets (I should be careful of my language here.... They were actually "dual" turrets, were they not, and not "twin"???) on the USN BBs were different from the 5"/38 Dual/Twin Turrets on the USN Cruisers.


One other question along this line:

Did the South Dakota's 5"/38 turrets have blast bags on the guns?

If so, when?

If not, when?

Also, why would it have chosen to not install them if it did not have them?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:19 pm 
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They are termed twin mounts. Go to HNSA turret and mount catalog, dimensioned drawings are given. Yes the cruisers etc have a mount with slightly differing dimensions from the battleships. The only guide to presence of bloomers and bucklers is from dated photos. Sometimes the bloomers are removed but the bucklers and supports remain. There is also a detailed manual for the mounts on the HSNA site.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:42 pm 
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Are they Mk. 28 Mounts?

Those seem to be the only ones with thick Shields on them (2" - 2.5").

Anyone know what Mod they would be, as the different mods have different dimensions for a few of their measurements (rear radius, and the width - it looks like they were trying to give the crew a little more room as the Mount was modified)?

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:26 pm 
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http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0248.htm
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0250.htm
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0252.htm
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0254.htm
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/index.htm


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:23 am 
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Yes...

I have those links already (and have already begun the process of marking up the scans I have of each to dimension them in AutoCAD).

The problem I have at this point is which Model(s) (Mods) the USS South Dakota had during WWII from March 1942 until Aug/Sept 1945.

Specifically, I need to start with what Mod of Mk. 28 turrets she had during Nov and Dec of 1942.

If you look at the various Mods of the Mk. 28 turret housings, you will notice differences in the rear radius, and the width and heights of the different mods (True, Mods 2 & 3 are only 1" or 2" taller than the others, which isn't a huge difference at 1/700 or 1/350 scale - the radius and width differ though by around 6 to 8 inches).


THEN, I need to find out if it has any other bells and whistles attached to it, like the traversal stops that are on the front of the Mk. 28 Mod 3

The Manual for the Twin Mounts Mk. 28, 32, & 38 has a lot of specific details, but not which mods where placed where:

http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/fiveinchtwin/index.htm

Nor does the discussion of Blast Bags (Bloomers) get into details about when they might have had them.

Although it does indicate that the South Dakota likely had the Brackets for the Bloomers installed during this period, even if the Blast Bags themselves were removed at some point.

I suspect that I will just have to sculpt some Blast bags and model the Gun Houses so that they can be built with or without them.


MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:40 am 
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Attachment:
USS SoDak AA Outfit 1942.jpg
USS SoDak AA Outfit 1942.jpg [ 109.44 KiB | Viewed 1906 times ]


I have a much larger, and much more finished plan for this (such as having the catapults drawn).

But I wanted to get this WIP shot of the USS South Dakota in her 1942 Outfit posted.

I will get the profile view up later, as well as the finished plan.

This is not "Blueprint Quality" (yet). I do have the blueprints for the USS South Dakota in 1944, and the USS Massachusetts (or is it Alabama) in 1942, from which I can derive a set of Construction quality Blueprints for a model, based upon these.

I just did these in order so that people would know what guns were where.

If anyone has any suggestions for alterations or enhancements, please let me know.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Matthew, I was just curious what was wrong with the already available 5"/38 twin mounts from the 3D printed companies?

http://www.3dmodelparts.com/1-700-5-inc ... ale-6-pcs/

http://www.3dmodelparts.com/1-700-5-inc ... ret-6-pcs/

http://www.3dmodelparts.com/1-700-us-fa ... ctors-set/

https://www.shapeways.com/product/FXHXE ... d=57607348

https://www.shapeways.com/product/UANGU ... d=57593962

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:09 pm 
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ArizonaBB39 wrote:


ALL of those 5"/38 twin mounts are for Cruisers. [moderator edit: this Model Monkey set is indeed the Mk.28 version correctly shaped for fast battleships - https://www.shapeways.com/product/FXHXE ... d=57607348]

The Front Facing of the Mark 28 5"/38 Twin Mounting for Battleships is deeper than the Mk. 32 5"/38 Twin Mounting for Cruisers.

Mk. 28 5"/38 Twin Mounting for BBs
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0248.htm

Mk. 32/Mk. 38 5"/38 Twin Mounting for CLs/CAs
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0416.htm
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0458.htm

If you look at the links, you will notice that the facing of the Mk. 28 Twin Mounting is deeper (taller) than the Facing for the Mk.s 32/38 Twin Mounting.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:17 pm 
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Attachment:
USS SoDak AA Outfit 1942.jpg
USS SoDak AA Outfit 1942.jpg [ 162.56 KiB | Viewed 1864 times ]


And now for the Completed Plan and Profile of the USS South Dakota in her 1942 Outfit.

You will notice that there are two 20mm Oerlikon's just aft of the #3 16"/45 Turret.

These are there because I can see shadows on the deck of the SoDak, in the only photograph of her in the fall of 1942 that shows this region, that look to be two Oerlikon 20mm light AA guns.

These may or may not be there. I included them simply because I felt that the possibility was there.

So, anyone wishing to convert the kit should be aware of this.

Since I now have the builders outline completed, I will now work on converting these to actual builder's plans, showing the USS South Dakota in 1/175 scale (which is 4x the scale of 1/700, so simply scaling them by ¼ will get 1/700), while at the same time working to create a 3D printed deck and level 01 of the superstructure that is more properly scaled than the Trumpeter kits (which has this level being FAR TOO WIDE - it sticks out so far to the side of the hull that the hatches cannot even open without hanging over the side of the hull).

The 3D printed decking will include an indentation that will be for a wooden decking (which I will work on a plan for either laser cut, or printed wood that can be cut out).

I suppose that since I am doing this, I should work on figuring out where and what kind of deck fittings existed (Vents, Winches, Paravanes, etc.), and then make a list of who makes these things, or do 3D Models of them myself.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:17 pm 
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Got my hands on a 1/350 Massachusetts, finally (I was born there)!

I'm aware that if the kit is built up by Trumpy's instructions, she's in her 1946 configuration, but that's just about all the information I've got on the ship itself. Would she have been wearing Ms 22 at that time and if so, were her decks still painted/stained blue or was the teak holystoned back to its original color? If not, what scheme would she have been in, and what would have to be done to the kit to backdate her to when she last wore Ms 22?

I kind of have a thing for Ms 22... ;) ...Alabama was still painted that way when I visited her as a lad.

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On the ways:
1/200 Trumpeter HMS Nelson
1/700 Tamiya USS Yorktown CV-5

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1/35 Tamiya "Pibber" Patrol Boat
1/350 Trumpeter USS Yorktown CV-10


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:48 am 
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I am repeating this question here and on the USS Washington/North Carolina thread, because I think there might be slightly different answers for some of these questions.

The overall question has to do with the wooden deck planking, and how it meets the edge of a deck.

Specifically:

1) How was the planking laid out on a deck around the edge of the hull, or of a deck level in the superstructure? Did the linear planking run right up to the edge of the deck, or was there a Framing Plank-line that ran around the perimeter of the deck?

This would be a piece of wood that was cut to match the shape of the curve of the deck (on the Main Deck), or simply outlined a superstructure deck. And in the sides of it, facing the main deck planking, would be cutouts to interlock with the planking.

I wondered about USN ships, because I see something like this on a few IJN ships.

2) On the Superstructure, or the Hull of the ship, how much metal was showing at the edge of the deck?

I see that on the main deck of a ship, the Hull has some "thickness" (whether that of a whole piece of metal, or engineered to be constructed out of thinner plates). But I do not know how "thick" this metal part that runs around the edge of the deck is.

Especially on the Superstructure decks.

Did the wood run right up to the edge of a superstructure deck?

Or did the superstructure decks have that metal "edge" that ran around the Deck like on the hull?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I am wondering this, because there are parts of the USS Washington, on the Level 01 Superstructure Deck that looks like the wooden decking runs all the way to the edge of the deck (especially where the cutouts for the 5"/38 guns are located), and I wondered if the South Dakota level 01 Superstructure deck had a similar feature.

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:38 pm 
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I hate to make two posts in a row.

But I still need some information about the USS South Dakota.

For one, I still need some photos of the Level 01 Superstructure Deck Edge for the South Dakota (or any of her sisters), for any point in time (As I doubt that the edge of the decking changed that much).

I assume that it looks very much like the edge of the decks on the Washington or North Carolina.

AND....

I also need some information about the Boat Cranes on the South Dakota-class.

The Floating Drydock blueprints (⅜":1" scale) show that the Crane carries a "Whip Antenna Platform" on the USS Massachusetts. But I do not know what date this is, as the Blueprints also show that it has a Searchlight Platform.

Which is what is troubling me.

It does not say where the Searchlight Platform goes.

Does it go in the same place that the Whip Antenna Platform goes?

I notice that both the Searchlight and Whip Antennae Platforms are offset to Port/Starboard (for each respective side). So I thought that maybe the Searchlight Platform was replaced by the Whip Antenna Platform at a later date.

THEN there is the shape of the Boat Crane-arm itself.

In the photos that I have of the South Dakota-class (Three Books worth. But all rather small books), it looks like the USS South Dakota had differently shaped crane-arms than did the Alabama, Indiana, and Massachusetts.

The South Dakota's Crane-arm looks to have a bend in the end of it, while the other three look to have cranes that are straight.

LASTLY there is the ladders on the cranes.

The Blueprints show two ladders.

One of them hangs off the outboard side of the crane Hoisting Gear Platform and Operating Platform (leading to an opening in the Operating Platform).

And the other runs up the outboard side of the Kingpost to the Whip Antenna Platform.

But.... If the Searchlight Platform occupies this spot (The Whip Antenna Platform's location) at an earlier date, then the Searchlight Platform would block the ladder from being able to reach the Searchlight Platform. The only location for a Ladder would be the aft side of the Kingpost (I am busy pouring through photos in the books I have, but I cannot find any with enough detail to answer this question).

Does anyone have any photos of the Boat Cranes for the South Dakota-class ships, please, preferably of the South Dakota herself? And preferably prior to when she had the cranes removed (as the model I have of her in 1944 looks to have no cranes)?

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:59 pm 
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are you talking about the boat\aircraft crane at the stern of the ship?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:14 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
are you talking about the boat\aircraft crane at the stern of the ship?


No, the Port/Starboard Boat Cranes on the Superstructure Level 02.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:37 pm 
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BB-57 USS SOUTH DAKOTA http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/57a.htm
BB-58 USS INDIANA http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/58a.htm
BB-59 USS MASSACHUSETTS http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/59a.htm
BB-60 USS ALABAMA http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/60a.htm
http://www.navsource.org/


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:11 pm 
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I am aware of Navsource.

And not one of the photos has much detail on the Boat Cranes.

The Photos I have in the Vanguard Books, The Warship Pictorial, and the Squadron/Signal Publications have better images.

I was hoping that someone might have some better photos that the commonly available sources.

MB

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1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:55 pm 
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Matthew,

Check your email.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:15 am 
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OMG!

How many people have set about building something only to discover that your ruler isn't in inches, but in Architectural Increments (don't ask me what kind, it is my brother's ruler that used to belong to his wife: An Architect)?


That is why I have not been able to make these stupid cranes fit on the deck where they are supposed to fit.

And it is why my upper decks on the 1942 USS South Dakota were looking so strange.

But now on to a couple of real questions.

The Stack and the forward Main Director Tower:

1) Was the stack on the USS South Dakota different from that on her sisters?

From the pictures I have (and the plans), it looks like the top of the stack overhangs the lower parts of the stack at the rear of the stack.

Whereas on the Massachusetts and Alabama photos I have, it looks like the top of the stack is flush with the lower superstructure components in the same location.

2) The platforms on the Director Tower:

– 2a) I know that the lower platform (Secondary Conning Platform/Station) that has the two searchlights was shaped differently on the 1942/43 outfit of the South Dakota (It had the two semicircular platforms, with an indentation between them on the front of the director tower). But otherwise was the front of the director tower the same?

– 2b) The platforms on the aft of the director tower appear to be identical. But I have noticed that two of them are slightly asymmetrical.

Namely the Forward Battle Lookout Station, and the Whistle and Siren/Horn Station.

Where these two platforms the same on the 1942 outfit?

From the images I have of the Whistle/Horn Platform, during her repairs after the fight with the Kirishima, this platform looks to be identical (two solid rails, covered in Canvas, with the side with the Horn on it about 6' aft of the side with the whistle on it).

But I can find no images of the Forward Battle Lookout Station from 1942 that would show an asymmetry. And I have tried to have Mathematica tell me if there is an asymmetry using one of the image processing Linear Algebra Coordinate Transforms. It doesn't have enough information to make a determination of symmetry.

So if anyone has any images of this platform (Other than from the Warship Pictorial 32 on the South Dakota-class. I have those), I would really appreciate it, please.

From the photos on pp. 8-9 of Warship Pictorial 32, it looks as if that platform is unchanged through the ship's life.

On the port side of the platform, there is a projection that extends outward equal with the port-side bulkhead of the director tower (as seen in the large lower image that covers both pages, and in the upper-right image on p. 9).

But in the image on the upper-left of p. 8, you can barely make out that there seems to be no such projection on the starboard-side of the platform.

I really need clearer images of the starboard-side of the director Tower of the South Dakota prior to the late-42/43 repairs and upgrades.

I do have images of the Starboard-side of the Massachusetts, Indiana, and Alabama that show no such projection. But due to minor differences between ships (especially on things like the platforms), this could just be a fluke.

In fact, the same platform on the Indiana IS symmetrical.

So if anyone can answer the questions about this platform, and the Stack....

Help, please?

MB

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Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:45 pm 
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Given the discussion/debate about whether the Missouri was in the purple blue measure 22 scheme in mid 1945, or the neutral grey version of the scheme, I guess the same question I have for the BB-59 USS Massachusetts. The 1/350 kit as I recall represents the ship as she appeared at the end of 1945. Would she have been wearing the purple blue version of measure 22, or would she have been in the neutral gray version by the time the model kit represents her?

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