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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:03 pm 
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Another of those things I never thought I'd see in injection plastic is now in-hand: a 1:350 scale Schleswig-Holstein, courtesy of Trumpeter!

So... anyone have any good recommendation for references on S-H and her sister Schlesein? I've been looking around for years and been amazed by the total lack of attention given to the last two German battleships afloat. What I have seen is fragmentary and inconsistent in the extreme.

The 1935 fit the kit comes in is very elegant, but I'd like to know what (if anything) need be done for a September 1, 1939 fit; and also what fitting she'd've had in her camouflage days (and for that matter, when it was and what she was doing at the time? I've seen the picture but never with a reliable caption) Likewise, what would it take to turn her into a May 1945 Schlesein - "greatly increased AA armament" is a might bit vague on details...

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:41 am 
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You're hitting on a very interesting subject indeed!

Just before it further perpetuates: the correct spelling of the sister ship is 'Schlesien', not Schlesein. Holstein is spelled correctly though: it rimes with English 'wine', while Schlesien rhimes with 'Asian'.

To Anglophones, the German 'ie' and 'ei' look very much the same, but are in fact totally different vowels: 'ie' is pronounced more or less like English 'ee' (or in this case en as a double vovel 'ia'), while 'ei' is pronounced like 'I'. So 'Bier' in German is almost the same like 'beer' in English,and the word 'writer' in English has the same vowels ast the German translation 'Schreiber'.

It always causes a chuckle in Germans when we read words like 'Marinefleiger' (must be Marineflieger) or 'Schwienhund' (Schweinhund), it immediately reveals the writer as being Anglophone and not aware of German pronunciation. :heh:

But the subject of these two battleships is certainly worth a good conversation on this forum! :smallsmile:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Thanks, Maarten

Actually, I took 4 years of German in high school and am well aware of the diphthong issue and even looked it up before writing the name... but then screwed it up anyway. Actually, I think there's a mental block leading me in that direction, since whenever I try to pronounce the name, the "ei" sound flows better from my American English-accustomed mouth. So, not "shlesine" but "shleseen"

Just tried Googling it again and both spellings produced results... no help there...

I may just have to buy a few of these... eager to start building!

Regarding the kit: one drawback is that Trumpeter went to the other extreme this time - rather than overdone hull plating, there's none at all! IN the days of heavy, lapping plates and riveting, I think it could use some surface detail.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:36 pm 
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SeanF wrote:
Thanks, Maarten

Actually, I took 4 years of German in high school and am well aware of the diphthong issue and even looked it up before writing the name... but then screwed it up anyway. Actually, I think there's a mental block leading me in that direction, since whenever I try to pronounce the name, the "ei" sound flows better from my American English-accustomed mouth. So, not "shlesine" but "shleseen"

Just tried Googling it again and both spellings produced results... no help there...

I may just have to buy a few of these... eager to start building!

Regarding the kit: one drawback is that Trumpeter went to the other extreme this time - rather than overdone hull plating, there's none at all! IN the days of heavy, lapping plates and riveting, I think it could use some surface detail.

- Sean F.

Hey Sean, you're doing pretty well then! But just try it: say 'Asian' a few times, then 'Shl-Asian', and you have achieved it! Please remark, the emphasis is on the first syllabe (like in Asian), not on the second as you might be tempted.

But let's get on with our chat about those coming kits. I can't wait either to get my hand on one of those. :smallsmile:

And you certainly have a point about the hull plating. We'll can try to find a shell expansion plan, but the chance finding it will be very slim I'm afraid.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:06 pm 
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A friend of mine is an avid paper modeler, and he's offered to let me borrow the Wilhelmshaven 1:250 scale kit - if he has one (i.e. if it's in the stash, and if he can find it) Otherwise I may just order one myself. There may be some possibilities in that direction for some plating info, and other details as well. Should see him later tonight - I'll let you know.

- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:02 am 
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Hi Sean,

The HMV paper models are superb, and so are those from GPM for that matter. But I haven't found much hull skin detail on those models, neither above nor below the waterline. Only the heavy armor plating on SMS Baden is shown. So I would check that before you order the kit, as these aren't cheap nowadays.

Now I'm thinking of it, the other kits we have of German WW1 subjects, the ICM Königs or the Emden/Dresden from Revell and also the recent Seydlitz from Hobby Boss, are all lacking that skin detail. And looking further, most modelers building German WW1 ships from scratch, seem to do without that skin detail.

Maybe our search has been attempted before, and proved fruitless?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:28 am 
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Maarten -

After looking through a lot of photos online of the Deutschland class and its contemporaries I realize that the plating lines are incredibly hard to see in most cases. You have to be right next to the ship, or you'd need a decent amount of rust, for the lines to be visible at all. And even more so in 1930s shots when the hull was freshly painted. I can see why Trumpeter and Wilhelmshaven would come to the decision they did. The Trumpeter box art portrays them very faintly as rust lines along the joints - a very good representation of what I saw across numerous pictures. It's a surface detail that needs to be handled very subtly, if at all. If I do anything about it, I'll probably either lay down a couple extra layers of primer in alternating bands just to give it a faint hint of depth variation, or create a paint finish effect at the end of the hull painting process.

Attachment:
File comment: Trumpeter kit hull
S-H Hull.gif
S-H Hull.gif [ 98.39 KiB | Viewed 8896 times ]


I hadn't even looked at it for the first couple days, but this box has some prime-grade Engrish! Not quite as hilarious as the KV-2's "quick fried tower" but very amusing nonetheless. Here, a brief history of the precisely 127.7112 meter-long "Schleswig - Holstein Stein":

Attachment:
File comment: The ship's history delivered in flawless Oxford Engrish!
S-H History.gif
S-H History.gif [ 100.73 KiB | Viewed 8896 times ]


- Sean F.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:17 am 
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The Sleswig-Holstein Stein and the Schlesien Sien! But I think I'm gonna like the kit anyway.

As for the detail on German ship hulls, I'm getting the impression that these were constructed paying effort to minimise the irregularities. I realized there is quite some photo material of the underside of these ships: when they were salvaged from the bottom of Scapa Flow, during the twenties and the thirties, after their purposeful scuttling in view of the Versailles peace negotiations running sour for the Germans. http://www.naval-history.net/WW1z12aCox.htm
Even at close range the hull skin overlaps are quite minimal, not much to trip over when playing cricket:
Attachment:
WW1z12Cox-17.JPG
WW1z12Cox-17.JPG [ 185.3 KiB | Viewed 8850 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:40 pm 
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SeanF wrote:
Another of those things I never thought I'd see in injection plastic is now in-hand: a 1:350 scale Schleswig-Holstein, courtesy of Trumpeter!

So... anyone have any good recommendation for references on S-H and her sister Schlesein? I've been looking around for years and been amazed by the total lack of attention given to the last two German battleships afloat. What I have seen is fragmentary and inconsistent in the extreme.

The 1935 fit the kit comes in is very elegant, but I'd like to know what (if anything) need be done for a September 1, 1939 fit; and also what fitting she'd've had in her camouflage days (and for that matter, when it was and what she was doing at the time? I've seen the picture but never with a reliable caption) Likewise, what would it take to turn her into a May 1945 Schlesein - "greatly increased AA armament" is a might bit vague on details...

- Sean F.


Sean,
I have not started a real search for info on the September 1939 fit of the Schleswig-Holstein but the few pictures and movie footage from 1st Sept 1939 seem to depict 2.0 cm /C30 guns on each side of the ship. The rear most gun is on an added platform next to the Boat crane. The other gun, according to film footage and some existing pictures, seems to be on an upper level of the forward Superstructure.
Some other photo's (most undated), show one gun under and slightly behind the bridge wings. It appears to be just forward of the boat deck area. However, these photo's may be later war photo's and not 1939.

Film footage of September 1st, 1939:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Uko02IoDg (Edit: This video not avail presently 8/6/19)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7v9iUvyIMk ( " " " " " " " " )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrF5D0udkJQ Was still working. Good scenes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7v9iUvyIMk Still working. Sharp details

EDIT 9/30/19 newest links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnB5TN73a80
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIhXXU_q2YQ
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ef5_1496690103 good image of port side upper bridge level gun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdZKm2yqr1Q Longer clip see 1:03:37 for SH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvs5J4qkmJQ Pathe
https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675051602_World-War-II_soldiers-firing-guns_battleships-underway-at-sea_smoke-arises -----Critical Past Excellent video.-----
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7v9iUvyIMk Periscope films


Stills from the film footage below.

Gun at Port side Boat Crane area:
Image

Same Gun with crew: (EDIT: Look below right... is that a 2.0cm Flakvierling gun? Arn't those multiple barrels???)
Image

(That lower right corner image does seem to show another gun down on the boat deck WITH AT LEAST 2-3 BARRELS.)




Upper Bridge level 2.0cm C/30 gun and crew:

Image



There are some well-designed kits made in the past that depict some variations that may need correcting.

The WSW 1/700 resin kit is a 1939 version. It included 4-2.0 cm guns and a 2.0 cm Flakvierling 30 or 38 gun (4 barrel). No added platform at the crane area for a 2.0cm gun though. Photo of the WSW parts:
http://wsw-Modellbau.de/WebRoot/Store/S ... in-Kit.jpg

Also, see this link for more info: http://www.steelnavy.com/WSWSchleswigHolstein.htm

I am told there is an H-P 1/700 resin kit of Schlesien and maybe one of Schleswig-Holstein but I have not seen it or photo's of a completed model. Still looking.

Another 1/700 resin kit of Schleswig_Holstein 1939 is made by Armo and sold here:
https://www.jadarhobby.pl/armo-70045-17 ... anguage=en
Additional photos here: https://www.super-hobby.com/products/SM ... rrels.html

These is a paper kit by GPM which seems to have a very good depiction of 2.0cm gun mounts.
See here: https://sklep.gpm.pl/pub/thumbs/91b/-produkty-243503-dsc00194-jpg-1900-1200.jpg
The GPM kit is supposed to be the Sept 1st 1939 Schleswig-Holstein. Looks to me like it is the Schlesien!!!
EDIT: I would suspect GPM used the plans for the Deutschland class/Schlesien instead of the Schleswig-Holstein. Rear of bridge superstructure has an extra level structure, (in photo it shows a 20mm mount on it), that did not exist on Schleswig-Holstein based on info I have.

An additional paper kit is made by Alice model. It can be purchased in several scales. Unfortunately it is not the Schleswig-Holstein. It is Schlesien,
Here is the link: http://www.modelalice.com/product/wwi-german-sms-schleswig-holstein-battleship-ironclad-battleship-missile-cruiser-frigate-destoryer-aircraft-carrier-landing-ship-large-scale-size-super-big-long-submarine-military-warship-papercraft-m/

The older WILEMSHAVEN paper kit at 1/250 was said to be accurate but I have not seen this kit, only photo's of a completed model.
EDIT: This kit depicts the ship circa 1930 with 14-15cm guns and torpedo tubes in fore and aft casemate locations. That would make it post 1926/ pre-1936. A very good build here: http://www.cardfaq.org/conventions/1998/rlyons1.jpg

Another scale model is Navis/Neptun's 1/1250 metal model of the Schleswig-Holstein. I[i] would need to see this model to forge an opinion

EDIT: Saw It! The 1/1250 model is very well done seems to be correct on 2 of the AA gun locations when compared with the 1939 movie footage. Very impressive. https://www.ships-and-more.de/images/pr ... 201939.jpg or try https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pic ... 1-1250.jpg

There is also a 1/100 fiberglass hull w/resin parts kit here: http://www.ml-modelships.com.ua/mlmodel ... hip_ru.dta The AA guns are not included apparently.

And there is a 1/70th scale "Scratch-Build" at this German site:
http://www.der-lustige-modellbauer.com/ ... stein-1-70

On this 1/70 scale kit the 2.0cm guns are located next to the boat crane on an extended platform and on the bridge wing.
Look about 3/4 of the way down this page:
http://www.der-lustige-modellbauer.com/t21913p750-linienschiff-schleswig-holstein-1-70
There are two more 20mm guns placed on the rear superstructure. I have been unable to confirm this location thru Photos.
There are no guns (2.0cm or 3.7cm/30?) on the boat deck on this model.

I consider this 1/70th scratch-built version to be the best so far for a "1939" version.


I am not suggesting anyone follow the design of some previous kit. I am suggesting there is no consensus between the previous kits on several areas of the ship. For my example I have only mentioned those 2.0cm guns which were on board at the start of WW2. The movie footage shows 2 rapid fire guns,and possibly a third, shooting tracers from at least 3 different locations on the port side of the ship. The footage also shows the gun crews, albeit briefly. I hope these posts will generate some interest and perhaps some knowledgeable modelers could add to the discussion to help turn the Trumpeter 1935 kit into the September '39 ship that fired the "first shot" of the Second World war.

Nino

P.S. Regarding Pictures: Look for the swastika flag and the German Eagle emblem on the Stern to ensure you are looking at 1935 and later photos.

EDIT: Many of the Photos on the Web of the Schleswig-Holstein and Schlesien are labeled incorrectly. There are some differences in the Superstructure. Also, watch for the Schleswig-Holstein shield on the bow to confirm a photo is of the Schleswig-Holstein and not Schlesien.
Image


Last edited by Nino on Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 35 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:41 am 
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Jim,

Trumpeter is also due to release an "as built" version of Schleiswig-Holstein is her pre-WWI, three stack version. I am looking forward to this!


Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:47 pm 
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William wrote:
Jim,

Trumpeter is also due to release an "as built" version of Schleiswig-Holstein is her pre-WWI, three stack version. I am looking forward to this!


Bill


Thanks Bill. Three Stacks! No waiting, WooHoo! :woo_hoo:

The price has been coming down on the Schleswig-Holstein 1935 kit. I always wondered why Trumpeter did a 1935 version instead of a 1939. There is not much info out there for the Start of War "look" but adding 2 platforms and a few 20mm guns would have been an easy initial start. Hey, if the kits were perfect we would not need these forums.

Between Zvezda,Trumpeter, Revell, and ICM, it looks like we now have a good representation of WW1 Dreadnought and Pre-Dreadnought plastic kits. Hope we see more.
( Okay... and Hasegawa.)
EDIT: And HobbyBoss. (Thanks Miguel!)

Jim (Nino)


Last edited by Nino on Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:46 am 
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Nino wrote:
Between Zvezda,Trumpeter, Revell, and ICM, it looks like we now have a good representation of WW1 Dreadnought and Pre-Dreadnought plastic kits. Hope we see more.
( Okay... and Hasegawa.)

Jim (Nino)


Don't forget HobbyBoss ,even is part of Trumpeter ,but thankfully we have the Agamemnon Class,the Danton Class and the gorgeous Seydlitz

Also very eager on the Schleswig Holstein 1905 ,I have the 1935 version and IMO is very beautiful,have no clue on accuracy but looks really nice ,for the 1905 wish to make one of her sisters ,perhaps the Hannover or Pommern.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:26 am 
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I have Trumpeter's 1935 Schleswig-Holstein and I've been looking at the sprue pics for the 1908 version on their website and it looks like the secondary batteries have not changed between the two kits. When the S-H was rebuilt the 17 cm cannons were replaced by 15 cm weapons and then reduced in number so each Trumpeter should have provided different barrels for the two version. I compared the barrels in the 1935 offering to those of the Hobby Boss Seydlitz and the S-H guns are noticeably thicker (and slightly shorter) suggesting they must be the 17 cm weapon. Trumpeter provided enough barrels in the 1935 kit for the 1908 version so I believe they either missed the change in armament or they just cut corners and figured it was close enough. In summary, it would appear you'd need to get replacement 15 cm barrels for the 1935 version (I'm not sure which 15 cm weapon they put into the S-H and what the caliber was) if you want to be accurate. That is unfortunate as the provided barrels are quite nicely molded with open muzzles and only faint seams that are easily cleaned up.

I do look forward to the 1908 kit, but I believe there might be a problem with the main turrets for that version that I'll investigate that further (there might be some bits on the roof for the 1935 kit that shouldn't be on the 1908, but again, Trumpeter only molded one version of the turret.) On a quick note, the kit's molding is very nice, the hull fit was excellent and I like the reinforcing joint along the inside of the hull joint. I'll add more as I progress.

Oh, it would also appear the paint scheme is incorrect. The main turret tops should be a very dark gray for 1935, as for 1908, the grays should be lighter than the ones indicated and I believe the funnels should be in the same grey as the hull (the darker of the two, but still a light shade).

Manfred


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:22 pm 
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Manfred,

I suspect Trumpeter picked this "1935" date for simplicity; it's when the Kriegsmarine started. Like you I am now convinced that the hull 15 cm SK L/40 casemate guns were installed by that time (1935). There was a conversion in 1925-26 that changed the original hull-mounted casemated 17 cm SK L/40 guns to 15 cm SK L/45 guns. (SMS Schlesien had all 17.0cm guns replaced with 15.0cm guns in 1926-27.

So, you are correct that Trumpeter should not have supplied the same 17cm SK L/40 guns for 1908 and 1935 versions.

All my sources say "...the remaining upper-deck 15cm casemated guns were removed..." from the upper deck by early 1936. (All 14 of the 17.0cm guns had already been changed to 15.0cm back in 1926.) Two of the rear upper deck 15cm casemate guns were removed in 1930-31 refit and so this means the last 2 forward upper-deck 15cm casemate guns should have been included on Trumpeters 1935 version as they were not removed till early 1936.
[/i]
EDIT: Other sources indicate that 4 torpedo tubes were installed into casemate locations, (fore and aft), in 1926 time frame and not removed till early 1936. If correct, Trumpeter missed this too! It will be easier to make this kit a 1939 version by replacing the secondary armament barrels with 15cm L/45 and adding four or six 2.0cm and maybe one or two 2.0cm c30 4-barrel guns!!!

Perhaps Trumpeter has proof that the last two 15cm guns were removed before the end of 1935. I have not found that "proof". They must also believe that the 4 casemated torpedo tubes as well as the bow Sponsons were removed before the end of 1935 too in order to call the kit a "1935" version".
(Personally, I think Trumpeter took the easy way out and skipped putting these details on the model. That way they could have a more different looking model when they release the 1908 version (and maybe others). Funny since they will have to add the extra 17cm gun casemates, and sponsons on the 1908 version. They do supply all the barrels (as 17cm), and even the 1908 3rd-deck piece in the 1935 kit.)


[i] I my opinion...


To build a 1935 model I believe the Casemated Torpedo tubes should be mounted and 15cm barrels used on all secondary guns. AND, quite possibly, two of the original upper-deck 15cm guns may need to be added as these were not removed till probably early 1936. The bow forward sponsons/"Swallows nests" should also be on the 1935 version IMO.

To build a September 1, 1939 model, No torpedo tubes. Only 10 secondary 15cm guns and the barrels should represent 15.0cm/45 guns in the hull casemates. 2.0cm guns need to be added to each bridge wing, 2 more on each platform adjacent to the boat cranes, 2 more on the forward end of the boat deck and probably a 2.0cm Flak/30 Flakvierling added to the rear of the boat deck- at least on the Port side.


In my reading it appears that Battleship Schleswig-Holstein had the following secondary armament over the years.

14- 17.0cm guns 1908 into 1926 (Need confirmation)
14- 15cm guns were present from 1926 till 1930
12 - 15cm guns from very late 1930 or early 1931 till the end of 1935.
10- 15.0cm guns were present at least from 1936 thru 1939
All of the 15.0cm casemated guns removed sometime in 1940
4 - 8.8cm AA guns were onboard on September 1, 1939
4 casemated torpedo tubes were on the ship from 1926 to 1936
I have not seen photos of any 3.7cm guns on the Schleswig-Holstein

Internet resources are poor on the subject of armament aboard at various time periods.
I have concerns with the listings by Wikipedia, WW2db, and Military Factory entries, among others, especially for the 1939 Schleswig-Holstein as the September 1939-dated photos and films do not seem to back them up regarding the 2.0cm and 3.7cm weapons.

Note:
I've only begun to collect information on the S-H. There is a long way to go. Several books to buy & read, published only in German apparently.
The German Wikipedia differs from the English Wikipedia on armaments carried as do most other online sources.
I have only posted information that has valid references listed
I did refer to photo's from my copy of VFW's Pictorial History of WW2-War in Europe volume. It had higher quality photo of Schleswig-Holstein.


Nino

Edit done on 9/1 as new sources of information on 15cm gun and Torpedo tubes found.


Last edited by Nino on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:16 pm, edited 21 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:47 pm 
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Manfred wrote:

...it would also appear the paint scheme is incorrect. The main turret tops should be a very dark gray for 1935, as for 1908, the grays should be lighter than the ones indicated and I believe the funnels should be in the same grey as the hull (the darker of the two, but still a light shade).

Manfred


My Go-To sites for colors of the Imperial German Navy are http://german-navy.tripod.com/sms_paint-overview.htm and http://www.shipcamouflage.com/kreigsmarine.htm

According to that first site the tops of the main Turrets and the Conning tower were painted 'jet Black"; probably RAL 9005.
After October 1917 white circles were added to the Uppermost Turrets. See the above sites for more specific details.

There is one more site with some interesting color history on German capital ships: https://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/hist ... history-4/

Manfred, Please post anything you come across on the Secondary armament on the Trumpeter 1935 S-H. Thanks.

Nino


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:21 pm 
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I mentioned previously that several web sites have incorrect data and Photo captions.
I made an attempt to correct one of the photos on Wikipedia.


Image
Caption was corrected to:
Schlesien (background) and Schleswig-Holstein (right side-foreground) in Westerplatte following the occupation of the port.


Here is Schlesien showing the Bridge with the extra structure at the end of the bridge wing, just forward of the boat deck:
Image


Here is a late 20's or early 30's photo of Schleswig-Holstein. Note the Ships shield on the bow and the lack of an extra structure just under the Bridge wing/forward of the boat deck.:
Image
Note that the "Swallows nests" at the bow will be removed in a later upgrade. The forward torpedo tube is shown just behind the rear-most "swallow nest". It resides in that front casemate.


I think too many photo's on the WEB have been captioned incorrectly. This has lead to some paper models (Schleswig-Holstein by Alice paper and GPM) looking more like Schlesien and at least one 3D rendered image (sas1946) depicting the Schlesien. There are other examples. ie: a Schlesien plan being used for a model here... https://www.ipmscanada.com/wp-content/u ... G_1488.jpg.

Site with the correctly captioned photo's of Schlesien:
https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_d ... lesien.htm

Same site for Schleswig-Holstein:
https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_d ... lstein.htm

Watch for these details when doing research. Watch for the proper Bow shield to ensure it is the Schleswig-Holstein and also look for German Eagle at the stern to confirm Nazi Germany and 1935 and later dates.

I believe I have identified locations for the 2.0cm C/30 guns and a most likely location for a 2.0 cm Flakvierling /30 gun (quad barrels). I will do some updates to drawings in a future post.

I had a brief look at some rigging. Anything less than a 1/200 model will make for some serious work to get it accurate.

Nino


Last edited by Nino on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:21 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:05 am 
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Good catch on the first photo, I noticed that one as well, that they had the ships backwards. To me, it does look like the early thirties pic has the skinnier 15 cm barrels. I will have a bit more on that this weekend when I have some time at home.

Question: Do you know what those odd curved things are on top of the main gun turrets above the rangefinders, the ones that curve backwards towards the rear of the turret? They were not on the ships as built, although it appears Trumpeter retained them for their 1908 boxing, (based on their website pics) even though the box art depicts the turret correctly. It looks like the turret will need a bit of work to eliminate the molded-in depression for these parts. Definitely could have used a newly tooled turret, which is disappointing that they didn't do so.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:17 pm 
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To your question "...those odd curved things are on top of the main gun turrets ... "
They are exhaust systems for the turret. Gotta get the the smoke and smell out somehow.

Yes, by the late 20's early 30's, (Edit: 1926!) the 15cm guns were already installed. Good catch on the barrel size.

I am looking for details of the 17cm and 15cm barrels. All sources show the 17cm in 4 sections of taper whereas the 15cm seem have only 3 obvious diameter changes.

For the 17cm sk/40 naval guns.

This photo from the German Federal Archive showing a 17cm Gun on the Northern Atlantic wall:
Image

Closeup of another barrel:(By Bundesarchiv, Bild 101I-113-0004-24 / Volgger / CC-BY-SA 3.0, CC BY-SA 3.0 de, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=5408768)
Image
Note the 4 segments for the barrel!





For the 15cm guns:
I confirmed the Schleswig-Holstein had 15 cm SK L/45 guns.
Probable dates for the hull mounted casemate guns is 1926 till 1940.
There are several varieties of 15cm guns. I have confirmed the /45 on the caliber.

15 cm SK L/45 : (By Manxruler - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... d=30925894)
Image
Note the 2 larger segments of the barrel.


All we need now are the Barrel length from the casemate front plate and diameter of the tapered sections.
Edit: the 17cm/40 was 680cm long (22.3ft). The 15cm/45 was 675cm long (22.1 ft long). So Gun barrel length is very very close and only shape of barrels differ.

Some examples of the 15cm SK L/45:
Image Image Image

Nino


EDIT 8/29/2019: I have made some corrections and re-wordings for clarity in the previous posts. Please re-read.


Last edited by Nino on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:55 pm 
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German Warships 1815-1945 volume I, by Eric Groner, has a detailed description and drawings for the Deutschland class ships that might be helpful. He states SH was fitted with 10ea 15cm/45qf in casemates, 4ea. 3.7cm AA guns, 4ea 8.8cm/45 qf, and 4ea 2cm AA, some in multiples? This was 1937-1940.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:23 am 
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Dan Banks wrote:
German Warships 1815-1945 volume I, by Eric Groner, has a detailed description and drawings for the Deutschland class ships that might be helpful. He states SH was fitted with 10ea 15cm/45qf in casemates, 4ea. 3.7cm AA guns, 4ea 8.8cm/45 qf, and 4ea 2cm AA, some in multiples? This was 1937-1940.



Thank You for posting that reference Dan and thanks for your interest in this subject.
I believe Groener to be right on the weapons for 1939-1940 as you posted. I do have a reference to his specifics on the ship but I did not take it at face value. I am still trying to get more exact dates for the many changes to the ship.

Currently working my way thru a Book/PDF called Reichsmarine-Kriegsmarine 1919 thru 1945. My copy is in Polish. Talk about a tough read...(I do not read Polish). I'm expecting to get a book on Schlesien by Wolfgang Müller - Broschürreihe zur deutschen Geschichte-Nr.17.-Kadettenschulschiff "Schlesien" - Wrackbergung (Brochure series on German history - No. 17. - Cadet training ship Schlesien). I had German in HS. That's 50 years ago so I will be having another tough time. I also have a CD coming with digitized personal photos from a crewman on Schleswig-Holstein.


Those 3.7cm gun locations are tough to pin down for anytime in 1939. I have been reviewing my photo collection to see if I mistook a 3.7cm for 2.0cm guns. The barrels were very different so I was pretty sure I had it right. So far I've located some references for 4-2.0cm single barrel c/30 and possibly 2-2.0cm four barrel c/30 gun locations but no proof on the 3.7cm locations yet. The available pictures are not good enough to spot them. I did come across a reference of ammo expended that first day of September 1939. It listed 600 rounds of 2.0cm fired but no rounds of 37mm listed. I found that reference from a site called "Ilaststandonzombieisland" . It was based on data from the ships deck logs. Similar data was also used by another researcher at http://brushesandbayonets.blogspot.com/ ... latte.html

Photo's of the Schlesien do depict an AA gun on a mount at the forward end of the boat deck and that could be 3.7cm. Maybe Schleswig-Holstein had one there too but on the boat deck itself. (The two ships differ on their superstructure in this location.)



I was overjoyed when Trumpeter released the 1935 model. That's why I got enthused to follow-up on some details of the actual ship.
So far I am finding that Trumpeter probably got things wrong. I am becoming convinced this 1935 version should have the 2 semi-circular housings or sponsons (Swallows nests") on each side of the Bow, 10-15cm guns, not 17cm, in hull casemates and 2 upper-deck 15cm casemate guns in the forward superstructure as well as the Casemate-mounted torpedo tubes at the Bow and stern.
The Swallows nests, upper-deck 15cm and all torpedo tubes did get removed but sources seem to agree on early 1936 for the removal on the Schleswig-Holstein. Probably removed in 1934 for Schlesien. (EDIT: Maybe this is where Trumpeter got confused, using dates for Schlesien's guns instead of S-H.)

Perhaps Trumpeter picked 1935 because that is when the new Kriegsmarine under the nazi regime started.

I have no idea what research they did for the model kit.
Several sources list either incorrect or a wide range of dates for changes to Schleswig-Holstein. This would have contributed to errors in the Kit design for the 1935 time frame too.
Also, Trumpeter may have mistakenly used the dates for the Schlesien for changes since he was converted to a training ship in 1934 vs Schleswig-Holstein in 1936!



Trumpeter could have picked 1939 and just added some 2.0cm c/30 guns. I think that would have been much closer to the 1939 Schleswig-Holstein.

I am planning to post some specifics on my thoughts for the 1935 and late 1939 versions of the ship. Too often I find a new source or photo that contradicts an existing one. It's all fun though.

Anyone want to try for a 1944/45 version with camouflage?
Image

Nino


Last edited by Nino on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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