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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Location: Falmouth, England
Brett,

Going back to the question of a date for the photo you posted on 4th Jan, in the better quality version at the AWM site the Oerlikon bin on the roof of B turret and the shields of two Oerlikons within it can clearly be seen. I think that this therefore dates the photo into the period March – July 1942 (given that there are accurately dated photos and film of Feb 42 showing her in the two-tone paint scheme and with no Oerlikon bin, and of August 42 showing her with the bin and also then in one paint colour overall).

(I thought someone had posted a detailed list of the A&As to Australia at various times but cannot find it now?)

It would be interesting to find a photo of the starboard side during that timeframe to see if the design was altered that side too.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Dick, I concur.
The reference to AA fit you mention may be the ROP list shown under Australia/Warramunga thread in main forum section, which could point to B turret tub/oerlikon addition early June?
If correct, given the amount of weathering evident on the 507A section(which has also been extended downward) I would venture to pinpoint the pattern repaint around March/April, and the photo date late June/early July, the ship log would note Brisbane port visits around this time. I would also speculate that the A and B turret touch-ups( given their crisp appearance) were applied later than the midship alteration, same time as A/A mods.
Safe to say, the shot is the very last photo of Oz in 2 tone, before losing it all together.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:20 am 
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The AWM reply to my enquiry on a timeframe for the photo in question is, in its condensed form,
Difficult to find Brisbane port visits, but ship was in Moreton bay area, in May 1942, also 4th June before proceeding to Sydney for refit (RDF) mentioned.
Proceeded from Sydney 21st, back in Moreton bay 22nd June.
For any non Aust. inquisitors, Brisbane river empties into Moreton bay.


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 Post subject: HMAS Canberra Aug 1942
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:30 am 
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Hi all, it seems the camo-dating discussion is over, I did not want to interfere with another topic till then ;)

I finally started building HMAS Canberra as she appeared just before her final battle and loss at Savo Island on August 8th, 1942, based on the 1/700 Kombrig resin kit. The kit indeed has issues, some of them already mentioned in this thread or in other places, and it is not particularly well detailed. Forgive me if my questions are too basic, I orientate quite well in IJN and USN but I´m no specialist in RN/RAN. Can you please help me to sort out the following details?

    Bridge equipment - there is this well-known photo showing HMAS Australia´s open bridge details during wartime, but her bridge was already quite different at that time from Canberra´s unmodified bridge. Would anybody have some photos or drawings showing inner details of the original style Kent-class or similar cruiser bridge?

    The Type 271 radar was housed in a typical lantern, that had either octagonal or circular shape. Unfortunately, neither of the few photos I know of showing Canberra´s final fit (e.g. leaving Wellington on July 22, off Tulagi on Aug 7) showing 271 radar is clear enough to be able to be sure enough to tell which type it was in her case. Would anybody know which type was more likely installed in early 1942? AWM has a photo of Australia from Feb 1943 with a circular lantern, but Australia´s lantern was only installed after her involvement in the Guadalcanal campaign in early 1943 and was of different type (Type 273).

    She also carried a Type A290 radar on her foremast. To depict this radar I would need more details that I was unable to find yet, especially dimensions and ideally clear photos or even a drawing of the set. The best I´ve seen so far is this photo of HMAS Warramunga with A290 on her foremast but anything better would be highly welcome.

Thank you!

(BTW I started a discussion regarding Canberra´s Walrus colours at the Britmodeller forum , there are some good points there, too, for those interested)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:11 am 
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Vladi,
Not much info on the A290, except I had read somewhere it`s performance was not very accurate.
Can not tell you its dimensions, or number of elements, but you can see from attachments that it had a small crossarm uppermost on the vertical shaft, and also another one lower. Second shot shows larger crossarm at the centerpoint which is hidden in other pics, but seems to lack the smaller crossarms, perhaps a slightly different version antenna, difficult to tell.
First shot is Arunta, so maybe first variant, second is Warramunga.

From the attachment of the lantern, judging by reflections from the panels, it could very well be octagonal.


Attachments:
A290.jpg
A290.jpg [ 63.55 KiB | Viewed 300 times ]
A290  p1.jpg
A290 p1.jpg [ 95.17 KiB | Viewed 300 times ]
271.jpg
271.jpg [ 22.65 KiB | Viewed 300 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:13 am 
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Hello Brett, thanks a lot for your help! The A290 was probably really not much good, otherwise it would have been more widespread and we´d have better documentation of it :)

Regarding 271 - actually I had a similar feeling from the off-Wellington photo (crop below), if you compare the reflections on the lantern with the one on the rounded part of the upper bridge "wings" (blue arrow - this is also incorrect in the Kombrig kit), the lantern really may be octagonal. I´d also say that manufacturing rounded perspex windows was a bit more advanced than using flat windows into an octagonal lantern, but that is only my guess.
Attachment:
271 Vladi.JPG
271 Vladi.JPG [ 29.32 KiB | Viewed 287 times ]


Let us see if someone has anything to tell about the open bridge equipment, it would be nice to have something "real" in there. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:38 am 
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I´ve been once again trying hard to find more about the Type A290 air-warning radar but with no success so far. There was a British Type 290 set but that seems to be quite different (although there is not much more info around). Can anyone remember seeing an A290 aerial (like on the upper 2 photos in Brett´s post above) on a Royal Navy (British) ship? Or was it specific to RAN?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:39 am 
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While this is just a wild guess, the antenna does resemble the Canadian SW1C radar used on Canadian escorts early in the war. Perhaps it's an Australian derivative or parallel development?

Cheers,

Sean

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Hello Sean,
thanks for your feedback, that´s an interesting point! I found a few photos of escorts equipped with SW1C radar, e.g.

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/ww2/flower/weyburn1.jpg
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/ww2/flower/spikenard1.jpg

and you are right the aerial looks similar. On closer inspection there are some optical differences though (without being able to check their actual dimensions and tech specs), the SW1C aerial is even simpler than A290, the latter had that large object at the shorter end of the horizontal arm and had a vertical part of the aerial (crossarms mentioned by Brett), too, which I cannot see at SW1C. Also there is no tubular object below the SW1C aerial that most probably housed part of the A290 equipment (waveguides between the aerial and the electronics had to be as short as possible at that time, this was also the reason why 271 had the electronics in the housing immediately below the typical lantern). I think there might have been some coincidence between SW1C and A290 or the similarity comes just from the fact that a single-Yagi antenna system in the metric range simply has to look similar to another of its kind.

Anyway, thanks for your help!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:38 pm 
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The 290 had a short service life 1941/42, with all the development in radar tech going on at that time, it seems to have been a trial unit before progression to the 291.
I have not seen any reference to it being fitted to RN units, If I am wrong, I am open to correction.

As the letter A would imply, that was the first variant, which may explain why the antenna on Warramunga does not show upper and lower cross elements on the vertical, I believe the lower cylindrical enclosure contained the mechanism to rotate the antenna, via handwheel control in the radar room.

The only ships which show fitting of this aerial were, Arunta, Warrumunga, Canberra and Stuart, but could be more. There is the flimsiest of evidence that Adelaide may also have carried a 290 for a very short time, but I have not seen any photos to support my theory.
The Hi res shot of Australia dated 31.8.42 shows something similar to a 290 canister at the masthead, but that maybe wishful perception and just a white blob, including a small blob where the tailfin would be on the horizontal, the blobs are dotted throughout the image, very coincidental? you be the judge.

If you can find any clear images, it will happen by accident, I have also made many futile attempts to find.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Vladi,
In respect to your build of Canberra, I would fit the first variant as shown on Arunta, only because Warra was commissioned Nov 42, which would have allowed development of possible second variant antenna. The Arunta aerial also shows what might be a longer element at the cross point? very difficult to tell.

Not many bites on this subject which I can only surmise implies little knowledge about the A290, in worst case scenario no one can dispute your accuracy of fitting to your build.
As to the possible fitting of a 290 to Adelaide, if interested send a message to my inbox and I will point to its possible fitting.
If you ever find a clear photo, please post it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:22 am 
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Hello Brett,

I am still not quite sure whether 290 was the same as A290, information is really scarce. It seems to me that variants were usually differentiated by a letter after the type designation, but I may be wrong. Most importantly aerials depicted at some places as Type 290 are very different from what we see at Canberra, Arunta etc.:

Attachment:
Radar 290 from The Development of Radar Equipments for the Royal Navy, 1935–45 p171.JPG
Radar 290 from The Development of Radar Equipments for the Royal Navy, 1935–45 p171.JPG [ 29.98 KiB | Viewed 145 times ]


I agree to your point about the "cylindrical enclosure", that´s what I meant by the "tubular object" above.

And I agree about the shot of Australia dated 31.8.42, it looks like A290 to mee, too. I just still wonder about the "tailfin", it certainly resembles a tailfin (especially at the Arunta photo), but that does not seem to make sense to be present at an aerial that was rotatable (any tailfin would increase the tendency to turn the aerial down the wind, but the purpose would just opposite - to reduce any unnecessary drag so that the aerial stays in the direction set up by the handwheel). It actually was this "tailfin" that made me searching for more info, because the rest is the circular enclosure with a simple Yagi antenna on top of it that can be depicted easily - and it will all come out ridiculously small in 1/700 anyway ;)

Thanks!


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