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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:54 pm 
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First off, are you trying to draw an illustration of USS WORCESTER (CL-144) in 1948 or at some other point in her career?


You guessed it ;) -- I'm working on several variations of the ship throughout her (short) career. So far I've identified several versions I'd like to cover (1948 as launched, 1950, and 1952). The SR-6 antenna is holding me up from posting the series so far.

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USS WORCESTER doesn't appear to have a "bedspring" SR-6 antenna, nor does she appear to have the "standard" SPS-6 antenna yet. I can't be sure, but the antenna looks more like a SR-2 radar antenna than anything else I can find.

CL-144 was definitely commissioned the SR-2 antenna on the foremast. Friedman's Cruisers mentions the SR-6 being mounted on a small stub mast forward of the second funnel -- visible in your shot of CL-144 at Puerto Rico, and in several others.

Here's a scan of the mention in Friedman's Cruisers, which calls out both: (rather large scan link here)

Interestingly the "as built" plans I found of CL-144 show the stub mainmast with (what I now understand to be SR-6) atop it, though the text is not readable:

Image

Here's another photo I found of the ship "as launched" (though no specific info beyond this unfortunately), which shows SR-6 on the stub mast:

Image

Photos of the builder's model of CL-144 show what I think is the SR-3 antenna in this position (maybe a last minute change or a lack of GFE antennas? Rick is the expert here on how the yards went about this so curious what he thinks):

Image

---

Friedman's Naval Radar states that the SR-6 was upgraded with the SPS-6 antennas (the comment about "not enough antenna" is interesting). It looks to me like Worcester received this upgrade sometime in 1950 (not sure on exact dates though). Below is a crop of NH 91832 of CL-144 in the Med, June 1950, with the SPS-6-type antenna barely visible (painted black):

Image

---

Anyway -- the photos you've posted (as always) are immensely helpful... I'll give drawing the antenna a shot and then post my results here. Thanks Rick!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:21 am 
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Trying to figure out radar suites in the 1946-50 era can be very difficult. There were several "new" radar systems that were in development during WWII that were completed post-war and built in limited numbers as newer and better radars were developed. The SR-3 antenna does puzzle me. I wonder if the long array at the bottom is actually a transmitter/receiver antenna. The bedspring and dipoles above it just don't look to be adequate as an "air search radar". The top antenna could be the IFF antenna.

Identifying these radars is made more difficult by a lack of references with images or drawings of ALL the radars in use. Friedman has the "facts", but he doesn't have many images he can use in his "NAVAL RADAR" book(s). It is a strange location to put a "backup" air search radar. Because of radar breakdowns or damage, most of the larger USN ships utilized two air search radars and two surface search radars. Plus, compared to after the Korean War started, there aren't as many photos of USN ships from 1946-50.

Without going into USS WORCESTER's BuShips files at NARA, which I have not done, I can't say why she got a SR-6 radar instead of the SR-3. I'm going to guess that after the installation of the SR-3 on several ships with the original antenna and finding the performance to be terrible, that the SR-3 production was terminated and there wasn't one to install on WORCESTER when she was commissioned/fitted out. The follow-on SPS-6 radar (or SR-3 radar with the SPS-6 antenna) wasn't available, so the SR-6 was installed as an interim measure. The only way to know when WORCESTER upgraded her radars, is looking in the BuShips files and finding her Departure Reports or other documentation. During the post-WWII period, regular overhauls were scheduled every two years. But, new built ships would have had a "Post-Shakedown Availability" within a year of her completing "Fitting-Out". Plus, as a "new type", likely additional yard periods were required to fix issues. WORCESTER's DANFS gives some clues. She had her Post-Shakedown Availability likely in early 1949, went on her first operational tour in late 1949 and returned to Norfolk and then Philadelphia in December 1949. So I will guess that her radar upgrade(s) were done in early 1950 at either of those places.

It is not possible to know which radar (equipment) was below the SPS-6A/B/C antenna on destroyers and larger ships without BuShips textual records or labeled antenna survey photos.

I see that late in her career, that WORCESTER had the Air Search Radar before the second stack replaced by ECM antennas.

Here are a few more views of the SR-6 antenna on various destroyers, frontal, rear, and side views


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:08 am 
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Thanks Rick!

As promised, drawings of Worcester:

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:09 pm 
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One more for you guys, though I understand if you're tired of answering my questions. ;)

I'm working on the late 1950s versions of Worcester and Roanoke. I've got Roanoke completed, but need some help identifying the antennas on Worcester in 1958. See below, the problematic areas are marked "????":

Image

I've labeled what I can identify, but need help with the rest. The radome above the no.1 funnel looks almost like a TDY* monitoring antenna (for the S-band jamming system, not the usual TDY trainable assembly with the corner reflectors), but I feel like this system was not in use by this time (though I could be wrong). Any help is greatly appreciated!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:02 am 
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The "Derby ECM" is a NT-66131 antenna used with electronics countermeasures receiving equipment. 24 inches diameter (including ground plane reflectors) and 8 1/4 inches high (the dome).

The "sword" antenna looks like a NT-66132 antenna used with countermeasures receiving equipment. 67 5/8 inch wide, 38 inches deep.

66131 and 66132 apparently were used in pairs.

The rectangular "??" antenna looks like an AS-571/SLR antenna high gain directional antenna also used with countermeasures receiving equipment. 49 3/8 inches high and 21 3/8 inches wide.

The "??" dome could be another AS-571/SLR. They were often under a dome cover. I have estimated the dome to be 65 inches high and 49 inches diameter.

It probably was an AS-616A/SLR rotatable two band array used with electronic countermeasures equipment - a transmitter I think. 68 inches high and 45 1/2 inches diameter. These were often located under a dome cover. I have estimated the dome to be 65 inches high and 49 inches diameter.

It might also be an AS-899B/SLR four band elliptically polarized rotating direction finding antenna used with electronic countermeasures receiving equipment. But this dome is smaller diameter and has a smaller dome on top (in the 1970s).

Phil


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Phil beat me to it and he has ID most of the antennas correctly of course. I can add that all of the ECM antennas were part of the standard AN/SLR-2 ECM Suite installed on most USN warships at the time (down to at least the destroyer size vessels) for detection of RF signals, not jamming. The antennas provide detection, direction, identification (hopefully), and some range information of electronic emissions around the ship. The domed antenna is likely the "AS-570/SLR", used in conjunction with the "AS-571/SLR" and "AS-616/SLR" antennas on larger ships starting in the mid/late 1950's. "AS-616/SLR" was added in the late 1950s to cover an even lower frequency band than the AS-570/571 pair did or in some cases replaced the "AS-571/SLR" antenna. The AN/SLR-2 system started to appear in 1952 and was upgraded several times afterwards. After 1958 the USN started to put a dome over the "AS-616/SLR" (and it appears also the "AS-571/SLR" antenna) antenna as well. I assume that was done to reduce maintenance on the rotating antenna.

Here is a cropped view of USS WORCESTER (CL-144) taken in September 1956 at a different angle than the image you posted. Another rotating ECM antenna and several smaller antennas associated with AN/SLR-2 ECM Suite can be seen in this view.

Image

Here are a couple of views of a USN destroyer from this period showing the antennas used on the ship's ECM suite. As far as I can tell, USN Destroyers only used the "AS-570/SLR" and "AS-571/SLR" or "AS-616/SLR" pair of antennas as part of their ECM Suite. In the early 1950's when AN/SLR-2 was first installed on destroyers, only "AS-570/SLR and AS-571/SLR" antennas were installed. By the late 1950s, the "AS-571/SLR" antennas was replaced by (on most, but not all units) the "AS-616/SLR" antenna. I have scanned a lot of antenna survey photos of FLETCHER class destroyers in the 1950s, and I find them to be confusing at times. Some appear to have antenna ID "ERRORS", so which ones had "AS-571/SLR or AS-616/SLR" antenna installed is in question.

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:18 am 
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Rick,

Thanks. I forgot the AS-570/SLR. We had all of these and quite a few more antennas on the OK City while I was aboard in the 1970s. 51 different antennas on the forward radar tower alone!

You are right that the ECM antennas were mainly used for locating RF emissions. When we sailed up and down the Vietnam/China/Korea coast our ECM guys logged every emission and obtained bearings multiple times as we steamed by. This gave us a map location of every radio and radar we heard, and also gave us a recorded "fingerprint" for each transmitter - each individual unit has unique characteristics that allowed us to track mobile transmitters from place to place. Since many transmitters were associated with specific weapons systems we were able to determine the positions of weapons located far inland.

There was another highly classified (in the 1970s) trick the ECM guys used. Aircraft parked on runways reflected local radar and radio signals just like everything else around them, and this was just part of the background clutter. But when jet engines were started up the compressor at the front began rotating and modulating the reflected signals. This produced a very characteristic signal that was different for each engine type, and gave the direction to the aircraft. This was called Jet Engine Modulation. In some cases it allowed the identification of the specific aircraft type.

On numerous occasions our ECM guys detected MiGs starting up at the NVN airfields and we would be ready with our missile guidance radars before they ever left the ground. We also vectored Combat Air Patrols to intercept the planes as they climbed after take off.

We also had a highly classified (back then) Soviet IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) unit in our CIC (Combat Information Center) that allowed us to interrogate Soviet built aircraft to distinguish them from other radar contacts.

ECM also listened for specific threats, especially anti-ship missiles, surface ships and boats and aircraft to give warning of an attack. ECM was an extremely important part of a ship's defensive systems.

Knowing all the tricks that we were using fifty years ago - without computers - you just have to wonder what they are capable of today!

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Thanks gents. Fabulous info as usual!

Here's the final drawing of the series (CL-144 in 1958):

Image

Question: is it accurate to continue referring to the overall haze grey as "Measure US 27"? I've seen this in a few books (one that comes to mind is Sumrall's "Sumner-Gearing-class Destroyers").


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:15 pm 
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Ms 27 came into being in 1953 with the first "USN Camouflage Instructions" since 1945. Prior to that the all Haze Gray camo scheme was known as Ms 13. Now then what is less clear is when the formula for #27 Haze Gray 5-H changed from the 1945 version. Some sources say that the new paint, that MAY have carried into the modern era, was introduced in 1952 (or 1953 with the new Camo Instructions).

A recent NavSea briefing presented in 2013, released to the public, on USN "Topside Coating History" says;

-- That "modern" Haze Gray paint was introduced in 1952.

-- In June 1963, a NAVSHIPS study report said that "Semi-Gloss Haze Gray" was best while painting masts and stack tops black to hide soot was recommended and adopted.

-- In September 1989, a NAVSEA study report on visual tests instructed that reduced contrast is accomplished by the entire topside being painted Haze Gray, Light Gray, and Ocean Gray. No black masts.

-- In September 1992, a new NAVSEA "Camouflage Manual for Surface Ship Concealment" was published. It required Haze Gray and countershading.

-- In the 1990's new paints with "Low Solar Absorbance (LSA) Topside Coatings" were developed for USN ship use and became required in 2002.

All Military paints have changed in recent years for environmental reasons and to incorporate other features beyond visual. So is the paint the same as Ms 27 was introduced, NO. Is it the same "color" today, I don't know.

Bottomline, in your case for USS WORCESTER in 1958, Ms 27 would be accurate. Drawings before 1953 would likely show Ms 13, which also used Haze Gray but with a different formula.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:44 am 
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Rick,

Somewhere I found this information about post-war paint schemes:

"After 1946-47 almost all vessels adopted Measure 13, solid haze gray (5-H) as peacetime paint.

"After March 1953 they used either Measure 27 (same as 13 above) or 17 (also known as 14) which uses Ocean Gray vice Haze Gray. For both these measures all steel decks and all other horizontal surfaces shall be painted either smooth dark gray deck type A of non-skid dark gray deck type B. All overheads and the undersides of all other external horizontal surfaces shall be painted glossy or base white."

I don't know how long this lasted, but the OK City was not painted the WWII bluish Haze Gray, but appeared to be painted Ocean Gray in the 1960s and 1970s. Wooden decks were not painted.

However, it appears there was an Ocean Gray in late 1941, and I do not know if it was the same color as the Ocean Gray of 1953.

For the current colors about ten years ago (Fed-Std-595) the paints were:

Paint, epoxy polyamide, Haze Gray, Formula 151, Type IV, MIL-DTL-24441/30A, FSC/Area 8010
Paint, epoxy polyamide, Haze Gray, Formula 151, Type III, MIL-DTL-24441/21A, FSC/Area 8010

Vertical surfaces: Haze Gray No 27, FSN#26270
Decks: Deck Gray FSN#26008

You can take these MIL spec numbers to your local paint store and they should be able to match them.

****

In the 1970s our ships' weather deck surfaces were painted with cheap paints that essentially washed off with repeated exposure to salt water. This meant that we had to repaint constantly, and that gave the deck division people something to do (we had a crew of hundreds of men to man the weapons systems, and they didn't have much to do when we were not at General Quarters).

But in the missile house we used epoxy paint that lasted for years without cracking or chipping. That was because we had to offload explosives before painting, and that wasn't convenient. Eventually the white epoxy paint turned pale yellow.

Phil

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:17 pm 
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The "FSN#" correspondences to the Fed Std 595 number. Which in some model paints #26270 is called Light Ghost Gary used on some US Aircraft as well.

Over the years there were several "Ocean Grays". There was an Ocean Gray in early 1941 in neutral gray paint with the initial WWII camo schemes. Then in mid-1941 a revised Ocean Gray 5-O made with the Purple-Blue paints was introduced and used for much of the war. Due to a shortage of the Blue Pigment used in the Purple-Blue Paints (5-N, 5-O, 5-H), the USN started to develop/switch to the Neutral Grays (#7 Navy Gray 5-N-NG, #17 Ocean Gray 5-O-NG, and #27 Haze Gray 5-H-NG)in very late 1944. The new paints weren't available until about February 1945 and even then "EXISTING STOCKS" were to be used first. Trying to figure out which ships were painted with what paints in 1945 leads to many arguments. :scratch:

I didn't bother mentioning 5-O use in the 1950's because I wasn't sure how often it was actually used and when/where. I took it that #27 Haze Gray (in a few different formulations as the "color" remained the same, but the paint ingredients changed as lead was removed and other properties were incorporated, changing the faded appearance) was used almost universally. Your statement that your ship was painted in Ocean Gray is the first I have heard confirming its use. I have some images (scanned B&W photos) that I have suspected could have been painted in #17 Ocean Gray, but given variations in tones with B&W photos, I couldn't confirm that it wasn't due to film/print processing.

The use of #17 Ocean Gray may explain this image I scanned at NARA back in early June of US BOSTON (CAG-1) about 1956, early in her career as a "Guided Missile Cruiser".

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:08 am 
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Rick,

The OK City CLG-5 was a light gray with no blue tones. Other than that I do not really know the color name. Along the line I came to think it was "Ocean Gray" because of the quotes I posted below. Back then they were still using leaded paint, and the light gray became very light chalky gray with time.

As I said, it was crummy paint because we needed something for the large crew to do to keep them busy. Chip, red lead, paint, chip, red lead, paint, ...

To add to the confusion the ship was in WESTPAC for ten consecutive years. We could get USN paint from the supply depots in Yokosuka, Japan (home port) and Subic Bay in the Philippines. But we also saved up spent brass shell casings from naval gunfire support in Vietnam and traded them for hull paint jobs when we went into Hong Kong - not your standard procedure. Who knows what paint the folks in the sampans used?

So the best I can say is that the ship was light gray.

****

Just about every discussion of ships paint schemes (USS Arizona, USS Juneau, etc.) I have read turns into "maybe it was this or maybe it was that." The fact is that ships were painted with whatever they had on hand, and the colors were sometimes mixed on board, not always producing the same colors on different ships. I think a best guess is the best we can do for most ships.

Phil

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:23 am 
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Dr. PR wrote:
Quote:
But we also saved up spent brass shell casings from naval gunfire support in Vietnam and traded them for hull paint jobs when we went into Hong Kong - not your standard procedure. Who knows what paint the folks in the sampans used?


Ah, Yes - Mary Su - a multi-million dollar organization started after the war by one woman. Became a multi-faceted business from sampans - painting the hull, cleaning out the scullery at meals, doing laundry for the crew, all sorts of things while anchored out in Hong Kong harbor. We traded brass and garbage for these services - and the paint was applied with rags - we got the full treatment in 1966 when we spent a week there when I was aboard STODDARD (DD-566). Who knows what or where the paint came from!

Hank

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BB-62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late 1940 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:22 am 
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Hank,

I always cringed when I saw those guys rubbing on the paint with rags, and even with their hands when painting some parts! It almost certainly was lead based paint!

Phil

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:09 am 
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Phil,

That's one thing we'll never know about - that organization probably employed thousands of people thru the years. Who knew? right? I remember in grade school kids picking a small fragment of white paint off the sills of the classroom windows and chewing on them - no one knew back then - much less running behind the DDT truck in the summer - duh@!!

Hank

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Builder's yard:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late 1940 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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