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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:07 am 
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A couple more.


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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:45 am 
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KevinD wrote:
Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Any other views?
Maarten

Thanks for those pictures, Kevin! They seem to confirm the previous notion. The upper one is a bit hard to read (damn the shadow) but the lower one is very clear.

Also interesting: in the second one the lower row of scuttles is largely reduced, and some are even relocated.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:43 pm 
Maarten,

Re: Your last sentence.

I agree, until one sees a full hull image of the ship when one can see the illusion that the forward upper row of scuttles is distorted, is fostered by the sheer of the Upper Deck and that of the bow knuckle. The result is not aesthetically pleasing.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:41 pm 
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Guest wrote:
Maarten,

Re: Your last sentence.

I agree, until one sees a full hull image of the ship when one can see the illusion that the forward upper row of scuttles is distorted, is fostered by the sheer of the Upper Deck and that of the bow knuckle. The result is not aesthetically pleasing.


I didn't mean the lower row of scuttles is distorted, most of them have been closed or blanked over! But that wasn't uncommon in that period, in many ships during the war (and after) the lower scuttles were seen as a real hazard, both in case of battle but also during heavy weather. More holes in a ship are more risky when something goes wrong. As ventilation systems improved the need for scuttles (natural ventilation) has also been reduced.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:47 pm 
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I appreciate your opinions and information, Marteen and Kevin, I just finished fixing the reinforcements on my HMS Exeter (was crossing fingers nobody showed up with different information! HA!)

Marco


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:26 pm 
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Greetings everyone. Not to add another tangent, but does anyone know of a reference that might list Exeter's boats at the time of the River Plate? I am thinking of aftermarket improvements but am not good enough with RN craft to be able to recognize types from photos with any sort of fidelity.

*Edit* fixed spelling and adding:

IWEM's photo HU 104427 is of the battle-damaged Exeter arriving in Plymouth. The two boats visible on the starboard side do not match any of the craft available from Black Cat Models or Micro Master at this time. One plan has two different boats (a 35' motor pinnace aft and a 32' Life cutter forward) but the two in the linked photo appear the same. Could this be a 35' motor pinnace, and is there a good reference for RN boats in WWi and WWII?

Related but a bit different - any idea what size of rafts Exeter Carried during the battle?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:01 am 
Tracy,

No disrespect but I see three boats in the linked photograph. The one below the davit forward of the fore funnel is a 32ft cutter: usually shown on the official drawings as a "32ft life cutter." One aft of that and appearing darker in colour is; if one uses the drawing of HMS YORK in Raven and Roberts' "British Cruisers of World War II," theoretically a 35ft motor boat. The one abaft it is, if one uses Raven and Roberts again, a 30ft motor pinnace. I am not an EXETER "fan," however, I do believe that some people have been carrying out deeper research on the ship. I suggest that you try and contact them via an "EXETER" website and see what they have.

There is nothing of value in Randall Tonks' "Profile" on the ship.

Regarding the ships' boats of the Royal Navy in the round: I am moderately familiar with the more well-known ones but the best source is the National Maritime Museum, though I know from experience that the record will not be complete (at least as far as I went into the matter). As far as I know, there is only one good Reference on the subject: WE May's "Ships Boats of the Royal Navy" (use that information as a "starter"), however it "stops" around the turn of the 19th/20th Century. There is no modern work that covers the subject, though one is probably needed but would it interest a publisher?

I seem to recall that there is a small amount of information on Carley rafts in one of the 1951 editions of the Manual of Seamanship, otherwise you will have to use photogramatic (sic?) interpretation. Regarding those carried by the ship at "River Plate:" I would advise caution unless someone can provide evidence but I see none in the photographs of the ship taken at, or near the time.

I fear that the above will be of little "comfort" to you but may give a couple of slim "leads."


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:11 am 
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Here are several ‘close-ups’ of Exeter's boats just post the time frame in Tracy's question. As can be seen in one (#1, taken while still at sea on her way back from the Falklands) there are four along the starboard side, but upon arrival at Plymouth (#2, 3, 4) only three appear to be there. Unfortunately I have no really clear photo of the boat adjacent to the bridge superstructure to add though.


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Exeter-boats-1.jpg
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Exeter-boats-2.jpg
Exeter-boats-2.jpg [ 114.66 KiB | Viewed 515 times ]
Exeter-boats-3.jpg
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Exeter-boats-4.jpg
Exeter-boats-4.jpg [ 223.89 KiB | Viewed 515 times ]

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:19 am 
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Guest wrote:
Regarding the ships' boats of the Royal Navy in the round: I am moderately familiar with the more well-known ones but the best source is the National Maritime Museum, though I know from experience that the record will not be complete (at least as far as I went into the matter). As far as I know, there is only one good Reference on the subject: WE May's "Ships Boats of the Royal Navy" (use that information as a "starter"), however it "stops" around the turn of the 19th/20th Century. There is no modern work that covers the subject, though one is probably needed but would it interest a publisher?


I am not aware of a volume like May for the first half the the 20th century. I have a fairly lengthy list compiled of all types that I know, some of them drawn by John Lambert, but a comprehensive list is a mer a boire. Seaforth Publishing expressed in interest in doing a boats volume (mainly Lambert's drawings), provided someone would write it. My first address to find such a person would be the NMM, in particular the boat house. Lambert had a large collection of drawings other than his own work and would occasionally slip in a copy of some variant I was looking for. I wonder where all that material is now.

Guest wrote:
I seem to recall that there is a small amount of information on Carley rafts in one of the 1951 editions of the Manual of Seamanship, otherwise you will have to use photogramatic (sic?) interpretation. Regarding those carried by the ship at "River Plate:" I would advise caution unless someone can provide evidence but I see none in the photographs of the ship taken at, or near the time.


Carley floats. Type, dimensions, tube diameter:

5 3ft 6in x 6 ft 12in
6 3ft 9in x 6ft 6in 13in
7 4ft x 7ft 14in
8 4ft 6in x 7ft 6in 14in
19 5ft x 8ft 14.5in
20 5ft x 10ft 15.5in
14 6ft x 10ft 16in
15 6ft6in x 10ft6in 17in
16 7ft x 12ft 18in
17 8ft x 12ft 19in
18 9ft x 14ft 20in
From: Ashton, J., Challenor, C., & Courtney, 1993, R.C.H., The scientific investigation of a Carley float at the Australian War Memorial, Technical Papers of the Australian War Memorial, No 1

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35ftMotorPinnace.jpg
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Re Exeter: the small boats with the cabins both look a 35ft motor pinnace (for each type many variants are often found making it ever more difficult to classify them, some unique to a specific ship). Pics at the NH show a variety of boat compliments, but at one pic with two 35ft pinnaces, both without a center cabin?

The more forward one: looks like a 32ft cutter to me.

(see also: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-60000/NH-60807.html)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:56 am 
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Well, here is another photo taken approximately nine months prior to the Graf Spee action. The two boats in the center certainly look somewhat different to the ones in my above post. The more forward of the two looking more like the schematic in EJ's post.


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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:22 am 
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From left to right, combined with the NH image, I'd go with...

32ft cutter
36ft motor & pulling pinnace
30ft gig
27ft whaler

(Measurements on screen are fairly consistent with these estimates, but a foot wrong is easy)

In Conrad Waters' Town-class cruiser book, the proposed boat outfit 1933 was:

2 35ft motor pinnaces
1 35ft motor barge (if fitted as flagship)
1 36ft motor & pulling pinnace
2 32f cutters
1 30ft gig
2 27ft whalers
1 16 skiff dingy
1 10ft basla range

Consistent with the above, FWIW.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:22 am 
Re: Post of 9.22am 01 Dec

For "1 10ft basla range" read 1 10ft [u]"balsa raft"[u]


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:39 pm 
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I hope that this is not a stupid question, but I have this doubt about HMS Exeter rigging & flagpoles. In a combat situation, would the rigging running from main/rear mast to fore and rear flagpoles be removed, preventing any interference with the main turrets fire? And the flagpoles themselves, I understand they are either removed or folded. Any ideas?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:04 pm 
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Marco, the rigs you have arrowed were dress lines, used to attach pennant flags for special occasion, they were supported on the masts by pulley block and were normally lowered and stowed when not required. The dress line between masts was also usually lowered/stowed, but it appears not always.
The Jack staff on the bow was usually erected in harbour to fly the national flag, it was stowed in open waters underway.
The Ensign staff at the stern was always erected and always flew the Ensign, all commissioned ships flew the ensign.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:55 am 
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Is the pole at the stern also not only used when in harbour? And the flag at sea would be at the main mast?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:27 am 
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Brett Morrow wrote:
Marco, the rigs you have arrowed were dress lines, used to attach pennant flags for special occasion, they were supported on the masts by pulley block and were normally lowered and stowed when not required. The dress line between masts was also usually lowered/stowed, but it appears not always.
The Jack staff on the bow was usually erected in harbour to fly the national flag, it was stowed in open waters underway.
The Ensign staff at the stern was always erected and always flew the Ensign, all commissioned ships flew the ensign.


Thank you, Brett. So, if the HMS Exeter would be about to enter combat with the Graf Spee, December 13, 1939, would the lines numbered in the following drawings NOT be in place? There a couple lines at the rear that seem to be radio antennas, they should be gone, too? And I think that the ensign staff on the rear would be removed/folded in combat, and the flags would be flown from the main mast? Sorry if I ask too much, had the same issue with the Graf Spee, and I want to model my HMS Exeter in combat operations, not as entering a harbor, thanks!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:24 pm 
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I recall a question along these lines somewhere but do not remember where, it may have been in relation to ensigns flown in battle and may have actually concerned Exeter.
The Ensign staff appears in most cases to have been folded in open waters, and the Ensign was flown from the mainmast gaff, but there also exists quite a number of images which show the Ensign staff erected with flag flying whilst underway in open waters. This question and circumstances may only be answered in a Seaman`s manual of the day, what is classed as open waters? and under what conditions?

Marco`s renderings show a number of lines, the very top line 3 would be a `topgallant stay` which I believe would remain in place but other opinions welcome, the lower line 2 would be a dressline and I believe would be lowered, there are 2 lines aft of the mainmast, one would be a gallant stay and the other a dressline.

I could not comment on the aerial lines shown and one must question whether the drawing is accurate? they do not appear in images of the day, ie Exeter in Balboa 34. I have not seen aerial lines rigged as such, what is required is a rigging diagram for Exeter prewar.

How many Ensigns flown in battle? a good question. Possibly at least 2, on mainmast gaff and from foremast.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:40 pm 
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In the end, I need a rigging blueprint... which I don´t have the slightest idea where to get, Morskie I don´t trust (and I can´t guarantee that the drawing I uploaded is accurate, either), and there are no pictures of combat situations for the HMS Exeter. At least I am sure about not installing the "dressline" (and somebody will tell me "you did not install the complete rigging...") Well, still several months until I reach rigging stage in my model!

Thank you, Brett.

Marco


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:42 pm 
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Marco, if you go back to page 19, Kevin D has posted a rig diagram `as designed` it shows the 2 aft aerial lines, I can not comment on it`s accuracy, the lines do not appear present in images. The oh image dated 1934 shows no aerials, I can not see them in other images.
Admittedly the aerials are so thin they can`t be seen between masts in that particular image.
You could likely obtain a rigging plan from Greenwich museum, it would cost you.
Here a rig diagram unfortunately the only resolution I have, perhaps someone has a larger print to share, aerials appear not to be shown in this plan.

A number of paintings appear on the PD, one image shows 2 ensigns flying, another shows 4 ?? that image also shows topgallant stay and dressline strung?

I understand your frustration to achieve accuracy, and also your trepidation of unwanted comments/criticism should you get it wrong, honestly do not let the latter bother you?
All the best


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:07 pm 
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Marco, I have the 1930 version of that drawing 2.24mb, 5876x2320 pixels if you need it. does not have the stern awning rig layout that Brett's has.


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