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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:52 pm 
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Yes, that indicates that Sumatra could have in contrast to Java and Tromp (and many other Dutch ships) a three colour camouflage. I am not 100% sure in case of De Ruyter, there could be third colour in a pattern dominated by two colours.

I am also not 100% convinced in case of Sumatra, it is certainly not the pattern in the drawing. Photo "2158_011481" could be also two colours. Where do you see the third colour? At the bow and stern? The problem is that there is also more shadow.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:05 am 
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maxim wrote:
...I am also not 100% convinced in case of Sumatra, it is certainly not the pattern in the drawing. Photo "2158_011481" could be also two colours. Where do you see the third colour? At the bow and stern? The problem is that there is also more shadow.


Nor am I convinced but it is an interesting photo that challenges. In fact I am concerned that J Anten's drawing is too much based on this photo:
Attachment:
Sumatra 1942 from Warspite 1942.jpg
Sumatra 1942 from Warspite 1942.jpg [ 165.24 KiB | Viewed 1193 times ]
and what I think to be shadow on the forward funnel (from the upper platform) and on the hull amidships (from the gangway) he has drawn as a (3rd) medium tone. Given the shape of the stern the apparent 3rd/medium tone there could also be shadow, with shadowing from the propeller guard and its brackets perhaps also playing a part.

I don't think there is any third tone on the hull of the stern in this 1942 photo? Or in the dark hull panel below the aft deckhouse - there is no sharp horizontal demarcation there, just a wavy line which could perhaps be shadow? But the aft faces of the deckhouse are quite light compared to the overall tone of the hull of the stern.
Attachment:
Sumatra 1942 van Galen van Heemskerck.jpg
Sumatra 1942 van Galen van Heemskerck.jpg [ 309.45 KiB | Viewed 1193 times ]


This undated photo taken at Portsmouth is even clearer of this area but there is of course a good chance that Sumatra was repainted after arriving in the UK so when was this photo taken/is this original Dutch paint?:
Attachment:
Sumatra in Portsmouth.jpg
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:07 pm 
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One thing I would keep in mind is that the third color the Dutch seem to me to have used was similar to the light grey. And if it was that locally sourced stuff, it probably wore off quickly. Thus Sumatra, who seems to be in the three tone camouflage was probably loosing that color fast.

Going back to Tromp's camouflage. That third color seems to show up pretty well to me on the stern photo, but you can also see how quickly that color is wearing off though, especially the part of it that was continually exposed to moving saltwater from high speeds. This stern photo of Tromp for an example shows the demarcation point I'm seeing in the back of the ship. Straight vertical lines like that don't happen from natural wear in anything I have ever seen, but the color as a whole seems to be also fading.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:31 am 
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There is another such "line" to the right of your right arrow ;)

The one near the stern could be caused by the light shining on the stern.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:40 am 
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maxim wrote:
There is another such "line" to the right of your right arrow ;)
The one near the stern could be caused by the light shining on the stern.

Hmmm, I don't think that vertical 'line' near stern is from sun. Take a look at this larger image. And if the other line I 'think' you refer to is the same as what I think you refer to, then I think that's just a stain of some sort.

Now a question, does anyone think that Tromp's Bofors has a 'shielded face', like we see on late photos of DR and Java? I think so, as we are looking at the backside of the mount, and I can just see the 'face shield' curving back over a short ways at the top as they did (on the wrecks). Note; in my u/w photo, right hand side of shield has collapsed / fallen off.


Attachments:
Tromp stern CROP.jpg
Tromp stern CROP.jpg [ 235.64 KiB | Viewed 1107 times ]
Java-Bofors.jpg
Java-Bofors.jpg [ 34.42 KiB | Viewed 1107 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:37 pm 
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KevinD wrote:
maxim wrote:
There is another such "line" to the right of your right arrow ;)
The one near the stern could be caused by the light shining on the stern.

Hmmm, I don't think that vertical 'line' near stern is from sun. Take a look at this larger image. And if the other line I 'think' you refer to is the same as what I think you refer to, then I think that's just a stain of some sort.

I do not think it is from the sun either. The shade is on the other side of the stern, with that area in direct sunlight. The color change with such a direct demarcation point on the stern there in direct sunlight doesn't make sense to me unless you have two different paints there. It doesn't seem to me to be a trick of shadows, and there are two consistent colors there, one on each side of that demarcation point. Also, if that was a trick of the sunlight, shouldn't it carry all the way to the waterline, and not cut off in the wear patch as marked by the green arrow?

Also, I should have been more clear with my comment about lines like that being not natural. Yes, kind of straight wear lines can occur as marked by the blue arrow, however if you zoom in, the line with blue arrow tapers off strangely, and doesn't have clean edges which is what I was trying to say, but did not say well in my previous post.

The line with the green arrow however is straight and crisp, and clearly marks a change in color on the hull. I know the hull is curved in that place, however if it was the same color, that transition should be more gradual in direct sunlight as it is on the rest of the stern, not that sudden and clear change in color. Thus as far as I can conclude that's two different colors of paint there one under the red, the other under the yellow.

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Now a question, does anyone think that Tromp's Bofors has a 'shielded face', like we see on late photos of DR and Java? I think so, as we are looking at the backside of the mount, and I can just see the 'face shield' curving back over a short ways at the top as they did (on the wrecks). Note; in my u/w photo, right hand side of shield has collapsed / fallen off.

I don't think Tromp had the face shields which were added on the De Ruyter and the Java. I doubt the shields could have been folded up, as I imagine they would have been quite heavy in order to provide any practical protection. Also, keep in mind there were a few pretty key differences between the Bofors on the De Ruyter/Java and the Tromp. De Ruyter/Java both received 40 mm Bofors Mk. 3 mountings while Tromp had 40mm Bofors Mk. 4 mountings, which was larger, incorporated its own fire control, and had a different crew layout, and thus I would presume needed different shielding.

Also while I have not seem hard documents to prove it, it seems that the De Ruyter and Java were both fitted with a centralized fire control system as a part of their Hazemeyer systems. IIRC Tromp was supposed to have a similar fire control system that was never fitted due to concerns of her being overweight, and thus her 40mms seem to have been under local control. Also, I'm pretty sure the Mk. mount had a built in fire control system which was different from or entirely missing in the Mk.3 mount. You can't shoot what you can't see, and thus having those shields also probably would have interfered with the ability to track targets in a way it wouldn't have on the De Ruyter and Java. (I can expound upon this if you would like)

Thus I don't think Tromp got the shields because her 40mms were on different mountings and also I'm guessing unlike both De Ruyter and the Java, Tromp's 40mm guns fired under local control.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:02 am 
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It could be still be a different paint batch - see the description how the paints were produced ;)

I would still not rule out a light effect, because of the different angle of the sun to the stern and the hull sides.

"Mk" is an English way to describe the guns. These are Swedish-made (Bofors) guns and Dutch-made (Hazemayer) mountings. I think that the Dutch names are "No 3" and "No 4". ("No 1" and "No 2" were Vickers 4 cm, variants of the Pom-Pom).

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:16 am 
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maxim wrote:
I would still not rule out a light effect, because of the different angle of the sun to the stern and the hull sides.
Maxin, no offence meant, but....................I'll stick my neck out here and say that there is no way that vertical line is from any sun / shadow effect (or wear for that matter, not that you said it was that IIRC). And I say that with a background as a semi-professional photographer who has worked with 'light' for 50 odd years, and having specialised for half or more of that time in b/w photography, and worked with both darkroom black and white, and digital / P'shop black and white. So am very familiar with tone / contrast / 'shadows'. But hey, of course you are entitled to your own opinion, but that's mine.And like I said, no offence meant.

And Gregory, would love to take you up on further discussion re DR and Java's Bofors, but best we do that over on one of their respective threads.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:33 pm 
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Have been watching the discussion with interest, from the available evidence thus far produced it would appear that some ships were painted 2 colours and other were painted 3 colours which I believe all would agree. Soemba also appears to have been in 3 colours. Taking everything so far discussed into consideration close examination of the two images of Tromp would indicate she was likely in 3 separate colours, this may never be agreed on without further evidence. A very small section on the gunwale behind the gash chute stain appears lighter, this is evident in both photos, suggesting the tone behind is the 3rd intermediate colour. Unless further evidence is found the question can not be definitively answered and the discussion/debate could continue forever, the same could be said concerning the port side pattern with no image found. The aft section of the large midship swatch (circled) looks like it was painted with a different mix which has weathered poorly to the forward section, but could likely be the same colour, this may never be proven. The darker swatch on the funnel looks like it was the intermediate colour.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:48 am 
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@ Kevin D: semi-professional photographer? Is that something impressive? I made also 10.000s of photos of real ships. Does that make me a semi-professional ship photographer? A hobby is a hobby...

We have the Dutch description mentioning two colours and only very vague indications for three, whereas all the pattern can be interpreted as two colour patterns if weathering, shadows and not very consistent paint batches are considered. Even today, with probably much better controlled paint batches, many ships show clear borders between different painting jobs with nominally the same paint.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:35 am 
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An example for a different colour impression caused by the interplay of light and the different surface characteristics of the different hull segments - HMS Otus in Sassnitz:


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otus03.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:24 pm 
Brett Morrow wrote:
Have been watching the discussion with interest, from the available evidence thus far produced it would appear that some ships were painted 2 colours and other were painted 3 colours which I believe all would agree. Soemba also appears to have been in 3 colours. Taking everything so far discussed into consideration close examination of the two images of Tromp would indicate she was likely in 3 separate colours, this may never be agreed on without further evidence. A very small section on the gunwale behind the gash chute stain appears lighter, this is evident in both photos, suggesting the tone behind is the 3rd intermediate colour. Unless further evidence is found the question can not be definitively answered and the discussion/debate could continue forever, the same could be said concerning the port side pattern with no image found. The aft section of the large midship swatch (circled) looks like it was painted with a different mix which has weathered poorly to the forward section, but could likely be the same colour, this may never be proven. The darker swatch on the funnel looks like it was the intermediate colour.

I think this is a pretty good summary of this discussion. That stern photo makes it pretty evident that there are three colors which are present, however as you mentioned due to wearing and stains, the exact shape of the pattern may never fully be known. I'm certainly with you on the funnel is in that intermediate color along with the area of the bow you have marked in that photo. Its probably going to be up to individual modelers to go with what they think is best in a few areas due to the wear and stains, such as the area you have circled. As I mentioned, think I interpreted the photos as well as I could on my Tromp, but I totally get why other people would have variations from it.

As for the colors, it seems circumstantially like there could have been green involved, that's what I went with, but I would never fault someone for going with other colors, specifically 3 shades of grey



@Kevin D: I would be happy to continue the discussion on the 40mms on the De Ruyter or Java thread, as I find that topic fascinating and I'm glad you do as well, but I'm going to need to carve out some time to write out fully my thoughts on their AA systems. Hopefully, I can get some time later this week


@Maxim: I don't think that picture of HMS Otus is a fair comparison with the picture of the Tromp. That is clearly the result of weathering resulting on joints in the plating on HMS Otus (and those joints appear to be very deep which only highlights that affect on the Otus). The line on the Tromp does not follow any joints in the plating on the Tromp and in fact seems to ignore the joints all together in the first place, unlike the Otus. The line also is a clear demarcation of an intermediate color to the light grey prewar color on the stern. Also, the color change on the Tromp is more distinct than the example on the Otus. Given that the Tromp's color change is in direct sunlight, that it does not follow the hull plating, and the color's clearly change, the most simple explanation for that difference is that is an intentional color, especially because that color doesn't carry all the way to the waterline, but switches back to the old prewar light grey part of the way down due to wear from salt water. I understand you think that there are two colors, but that comparison does not seem equivalent to me


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:12 pm 
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maxim wrote:
@ Kevin D: semi-professional photographer? Is that something impressive? I made also 10.000s of photos of real ships. Does that make me a semi-professional ship photographer? A hobby is a hobby.

No need to get smart now maixim. What part of the "no offence meant" did you not understand? So just to clarify, I call someone who makes their entire income, or the best part of from photography, a 'professonal' photograper. Whereas one who makes part of their income year after year I 'class' as a semi-pro. I fit into the 2nd caregory. So photography was / is no 'hobby' for me, but something I still earn an income from to this day. And I only added my background so It could be seen I was not just sharing an 'unqualified' opinion (whatever that may mean).

And 'real ships', what other kind are there (unless you allude to models)?

As for the 10,000's of photos of real ships you've taken; as they say with regards money, if you can count it / know much you have then you aint got much. :smallsmile: Besides what does the number of photos taken have to do with being a pro or semi-pro photographer?

Below from just two weeks above and below water in the Galapagos Islands back in 95. And as the caption states, "thank God for digital"! :wave_1:


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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:40 pm 
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Guest wrote:
@Kevin D: I would be happy to continue the discussion on the 40mms on the De Ruyter or Java thread, as I find that topic fascinating and I'm glad you do as well, but I'm going to need to carve out some time to write out fully my thoughts on their AA systems. Hopefully, I can get some time later this week

Yes, glad to guest. I'll also gather my thoughts and some images as the week goes on too then. :smallsmile:

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We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:42 am 
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To clarify: You claimed that you have not seen something like that caused by the light, I have shown you an example. 50 years experience should have given you plenty of chances to have seen similar effects.

The argument with the wear closer to the waterline is more convincing than to claim to be "semi-professional". But that does not rule out different paint jobs causing that line.

Judging from the bad state of the paint on Tromp and the inconsistent quality of the paints used, I consider that line on the stern to be a very weak indicator for a third colour.

It that would be a third colour, in my view, the only interpretation possible is that the hull was painted on the starboard side mainly with two colours (except of the stern) and the superstructures also with two colours - and the intermediate one was used on both. The area in front of the gash chute does not appear to be different in the second photo. But still the simpler interpretation are two colours, because often identical colours look different on the hull and superstructure.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:22 am 
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maxim wrote:
To clarify: You claimed that you have not seen something like that caused by the light, I have shown you an example. 50 years experience should have given you plenty of chances to have seen similar effects. .

OK, let me be clear and more direct as to the Tromp photo in question, as you seem have taken my post too litteraly as having 'never ever seen' the effects of light / shadows on hulls, and state that I have not seen an example like seen (in that) photo. Oh, and as another poster stated, I dont find your sub photos as to have any bearing on the stern shot of Tromp, they just suports your 'literal' misinterptratation of my early statement. So my bad for the poor phrasing in my earlier statement. :bash_2:

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A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:08 am 
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Because you ignore the point with the different paint jobs, which often cause such effects, here another argument regarding the light effect:

Approximately at the position of that line is a main frame, which could cause buckling of the plates there (source for plans):


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Tromp-(stern).jpg
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:47 pm 
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If you zoom in on the photograph, you can see the faint lines from the individual hull plates. That color change on the Tromp's stern ignores the hull plating all together. Also, the stern curves in the exact manner shown in Tromp's blueprints, with no indication of any major buckling which would explain that color change. Given the color changes ignores the hull plating all together and there is no evidence of any buckling in the plates, I think would be fair to conclude that the hull plates don't have anything to do with that color change.

Edit to add: if buckling of stern plates explained the color change there on the stern, that color change should show up in other photos of the Tromp, and I am unaware of any other photos of the Tromp showing a color change there


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:31 am 
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I was not talking about the edges of the plates, but about the frame behind them ;)

If there is buckling, it would cause the impression of a colour change (not a colour change itself) and such an impression depends on the angle of light and the extent of buckling. It would not be expected to present on every photo.

Anyway, based on the overall shape of her painting (really a rather bad state!), inconsistent paint batches or different paint jobs could also explain that line.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:16 am 
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I would agree that any buckling/distortion of the plates could cause a perceived tonal change, but I would not agree that it would not be seen in other images. If it were of detriment to the integrity of the hull it would likely be repaired but in this case it looks quite superficial, if that were the case. Any tonal change would be expected along the length of distortion, there is no distortion visible at the hull strakes over which it lies. This looks like a rust or superficial paint stain from the deck, it begins at the gunwale.


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