The Ship Model Forum

The caption of the painting is quite specific as to the time/date. I don't think have ever come across a war artist who has got the camouflage pattern on a ship exactly right. Artists will always be slightly impressionistic in their work. To my eye Adams has done quite a good job.

However please can you demonstrate exactly what/where you mean as I don't seem to have any photo that shows the pre-repair pattern clearly enough.

(As Brett says there were no greens like this in the RN palette. Nor can it even be one of the Australian pseudo MS paints in khaki greens as the concept of the RN's MS paint range on which they were based was unknown to the people in charge of ship camouflage in Australia until just after Tromp completed the post-Java repairs.)

The pre-repair pattern can be seen here:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/044774/
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/305844/ (same photo, not as dark)
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/305843/

The forward gunhouse appears to be uniformly painted - in contrast to the painting.

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I could argue that the shine off the side of the forward gunhouses is probably obliterating the pattern in those photos. I think we need other/better images before we discount Adam's artwork in that area.

On re-examination of the painting it is likely that it reflects her appearance 4th qtr 42. The port bow swatch would loosely resemble what was worn at that time. You can see a midship partition not present in the Feb images, the 3 casements are missing and the green midship swatch resembles what is seen in photos, to cap it off the strbd dark swatch on A turret matches her later scheme. As Dick points out some artistic licence is always applied by painters, but the painting itself is a valuable reference as it shows us a number of colours comprising the second scheme.
I would still agree that the first scheme was 2 colours of mottled irregular appearance and the darker colour was a greenish grey, not a neutral grey, as I stated some posts back I have never seen a port image of Tromp in her first scheme.

I agree that the painting does seem to show Tromp in the post repair camouflage scheme she had. That wouldn't make the caption incorrect though, as she probably got that camouflage when she was under repairs in Cockatoo.

Does anyone have any idea where that camouflage design came from? It certainly has nothing in common with anything the USN came up with, and it seems even in the black and white photos to be pretty distinct from Royal Navy designs (I am admittedly less familiar with RN camouflage though).

The angular nature of it point towards it being a further development of the Dutch designs from the NEI period. Aka the Tromp gets in port with a run down camouflage, and repaints in a modification of what she was in earlier. If so, that would point further to green being a camouflage color used by the Dutch in the 1941-1942 period. Thoughts?

In any case, would I be correct in saying Tromp's post ABDA camouflage 1942 camouflage is unique? It would make sense to me that she would be in a unique camouflage, as she was the only major Dutch warship to make it out of the NEI and still see service, so the crew easily could have repainted her in something similar to what they had before, which would have resulted in that one off camouflage she is in. (Assuming no RN or RAN ships had a camouflage like that at the time)

Mmm, Ok, but it is an impressionist painting.

I see with a somewhat distant view considerable similarities. What do you think of this:
Don't forget: the dark patch on the port bow in the painting is not camo, but the shadow from the bow flare!

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Re the now underlined, I was just about to say that I thought same also, although there does still 'appear' to be an odd swatch of 'green' forward on the very bow(?).

Also, re artist's interpretations / renditions of 'colours', see this print (last post this page);
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=44792&start=240#p955602

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“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

The photo you linked show Tromp after the repairs in Australia. E.g. the remaining kingpost was removed and 3" guns were already added. I think there are obvious similarities with the pattern added during the repairs.

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A little further research: the book 'De Tromp en haar Trompers' includes a verbatim ship's diary of the wartime. I spent a few hours putting this to a timeline, between December 7th (start of the war) and March 7th (start of the repairs in Cockatoo Island shipyard). This narrative is not meant to be entirely exact, but to provide a nice reading story. So there are several phrases like 'a few days later...' , I have tried to pinpoint these as well as I could.

What's obvious is that the ship has been at sea most of the time in that period, only making landfall for refuelling/replenishing and small repairs. However, a few periods show there was some harbour time. These were:
- 23-25 December in Surabaya (Christmas)
- 29-31 December in Tandjong Priok (New Year)
- 12-18 January in Tandjong Priok (near Batavia)
- 28 January - 3 February in Surabaya.

As I mentioned before, only on 8th of December there is the report of parts of the deck being painted in green. Further no painting is mentioned at all, only replenishing or small repairs, or the larger provisional repairs on 22 February after the Badung Strait battle, before departure to Australia.

However, from the possible harbour time the period of 12-18 January in Tandjong Priok seems the most likely period for the application of camouflage. So well away from the main base in Surabaya, but as a large harbour Tandjong Priok could have supplied the required paint without doubt. But not being a naval base, the paint would have been just what was available, not likely Navy stock paints. So no guide on the exact colours! As 'green' was already mentioned on the 8th of December, I wouldn't be surprised anymore by the use of any suitable green for the hull camo by mid January.

I have the diary in Excel (in English), so give me a note if you like to have it.

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

Additional note: I put a request for scans of the original War Diary of Tromp which rests in the National Archive in The Hague. We'll see what that might add, some patience required for these scans to arrive.

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"I've heard there's a wicked war a-blazing, and the taste of war I know so very well
Even now I see the foreign flag a-raising, their guns on fire as we sail into hell"
Roger Whittaker +9/13/2023

A somehow related question:

the only so far known photos of Tromp in February 1942 are from the Australian archives. That is perhaps not surprising, because so many Dutch ships were sunk and the land bases were occupied.

Is it known from which sources the photos of Java and De Ruyter with camouflage are?

Could have Soemba brought photos back?

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If you are thinking of the photos I think you are, then it seems they came to us thanks to this wonderful individual.
If you scroll down you will find the photos were in his album.

https://collections.museumsvictoria.com ... icles/6784

Thank you! That indicates that also at least most known photos of Java and De Ruyter with the 1942 camouflage are from Australian sources, more precisely David Ralph Goodwin.

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As you are no doubt aware Dick, unless directly mentioned, in all likelyhood he did not take those album photos. Many of the sailors on many ships had the same photo's in their albums. But of course it may state somewhere that he actually took them, but........................

I don't think he took the DR and Java ones (I posted earlier in this thread) anyway, as it seems he was not ever on HMAS Ballarat. The first time I ever saw the one of DR it had this caption "De Ruyter in her camouflage scheme, most likely in January of February 1942. The photo was taken from the Australian minesweeper HMAS Ballarat. (Collection HMAS Ballarat Association, via Peter Cannon)" See that uncropped image below.

Not that we should not be grateful for him allowing his album to be published, we are!

PS. One thing to note though is that some (many?) of the photos in that album are incorrectly captioned / described. Not all, but enough, so................beware of 'place' accreditation in some.

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“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

Yes Kevin, aware of that. For example it would have been difficult for him to have taken the photos of the German paratroopers at their departure airfield or of the German soldiers embarking on the Italian destroyer! It would seem that enterprising individuals took to selling multiple copies of popular photos through ships' canteens and so the same images often crop up in various veterans' photo albums.

I also agree with you that the particular photos of de Ruyter and Java (if I am thinking of the right ones) that you posted (Sept 16th - side by side) came via a route other than Goodwin. However he could theoretically have taken the three in his album (which were the ones I was guessing Maxim was referring to) during his time on Hobart could he not?

For good measure here is another one of Java taken from Canberra so again not via Goodwin. I wonder how many more photos are lurking in Australian collections?

Hi Dick,

Re my now underlined, yes he could as he certaily was on Hobart.

And I wonder also how many photos are unintentioally "hidden away" around the world that we would love to see but maybe (probably for many) never will.

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“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

I fear many - there are also states with very restrictive copyright laws, which will likely cause a loss of >90% of all photos for the public, because they are never uploaded and will be thrown away after the death of the owner.

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Sliding a little off- topic here but............I wonder if the discussion being had and 'time in port' of the various ships gives any indication when the 'shields' were put on the front of DR and Java's Bofors?

They are already on Java in the above photo of her Dick posted, so pre then for her at least (and that photo can be dated as she was only once with HMAS Canberra IIRC).

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“We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
“A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942

1) The photos in the HOBART sailor's albums are not necessarily all original photos. IIRC some were postcards that sailors often acquired. This is quite common in WWII-era naval photo albums; in fact I can't recall ever seeing such an album/scrapbook that didn't have them...and in some (maybe many) cases postcards/reproductions are in the preponderance.

2) AFAIK HMAS HOBART never operated with DD-225 either, so that particular ID has always seemed slightly suspect.
But, all large institutions with mil-hist photo collections are going to have some factual errors, whether in Japan, or at NARA, AWM, or NHHC. And online collections are even more prone to such glitches.

3) Most, if not all, photos by US military personnel in WWII are considered Public Domain. Not certain about other nation's armed forces, though.

HTH

It is sad that so many photos which could tell us a lot about the ABDA period are lost probably for good.

Regarding the David Goodwin collection, some of those photos were likely taken by him, and at the very least some had to be taken at least on the HMAS Hobart during the ABDA period. The photos of HMS Tenedos along aside the SS Norah Moller could only have been taken from the HMAS Hobart, same with the images of her alongside the damaged SS War-Sirdar. The photos of the De Ruyter, Java, and Tromp also were likely taken on the HMAS Hobart right before the Battle of the Gaspar Strait, as that is the only time they operated together. Did he take all of those photos, no. Did he likely take some of them? I think that would be a fair conclusion.