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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:07 am 
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Thank you very much for the explanations!

Chokai was the ship of the class, which was not modernized to the extend of her sisters. Maya was modernized late, which could explain the difference.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:23 am 
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maxim wrote:
Thank you very much for the explanations!

Chokai was the ship of the class, which was not modernized to the extend of her sisters. Maya was modernized late, which could explain the difference.

・・・・・
y.w. Suppose Maya had the cable restored in the same manner as before,it would look like this, Chokai has it differently from Maya´s in arrangement of the cabling...

cheers,


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:53 pm 
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Mutsuo Sasaki wrote:
Degaussing cable was removed from all IJN heavy cruisers at spring or summer 1944 (last modification at the end of June 1944 and beginning of July 1944)

For example - degaussing cable was removed from Maya at modernization before April 1944. Because, at photo taken 15 May 1944 when Maya arrived at Tawitawi, Maya didn't have degaussing cable.
If we will look at R/V Petrel photos - we will not find cable.

Now we can look at photos of Mogami, Chokai, Maya at the sea bottom - and they all don't have degaussing cable from October 1944
We can look at photos of Aoba, Tone, Myoko, Takao and uncompleted Ibuki in Late 1945-1946 - they didn't have degaussing cable too.
I have some photos of Atago and Chokai from May 1944 at Lingga and Takao in March 1944 at Palau, but shadows on board on a sunny day or the size and quality of photos doesn't allow me to see the cable or its absence on board. Only at one photo of Maya in Tawitawi I don't see the shadow from degaussing cable on board
--------------------------

hi, Dan K- and me did discuss the degaussing cables a lot in the past. Can assure you Chokai at least had the cable,one of R/V Petrel photos can confirm this. On Chokai model 1944, yes, expression of the degaussing cable is a must, I might say.
As Dan wrote above, copper and other metals were in acute shortage,they stripped ´em off from ships removed from ocean going operations. They even collected any metals from cities and civilians:bells,clocks from temples, metal statues ,just about any available metals from anywhere in the country then.

cheers,


Hi!
Me and my friends, which build Japanese ships, discuss this many times.

For example - Chokai at depth + example of degaussing cable from Furutaka. Cables at Kaga, Hiei, Kirishima - were similar.
At Chokai's aft we can see old cable mounts - but there is no cable. Cable cover rusts quickly, but the cable doesn't corrode at the sea depth
Therefore, he could not dissolve and disappear from the ship all over from both sides simultaneously

Image

We don't see anything like this - Chokai at Selestar 1942
Image

If Chokai may had cable at October 1944 - we would see the same situation as on Furutaka and Kaga. But we don't see the same situation - So, the cable was dismantled some months before sunk.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:04 pm 
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Mutsuo Sasaki wrote:
By looking into the R/V Petrel´s photos in the above I took a time in re-arranging the cable of Chokai around the stern, 1944 and on the drawing as a side task to do, so the cable here runs below the place of the ship name plate.

cheers,


I think - the draw has mistake
The cable may be upper. You can see here - 2 rows of mounts run parallel across the stern.
Image

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:11 pm 
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The Japanese mounted their cables in several ways. One appears to be the rectangular (in cross-section) box we see on Chokai's hull in 1942 that runs under the torpedo tube openings in the hull. It's possible that what we are seeing today is the back of that same box enclosure still attached to the hull. I feel it's too much of a coincidence to have the same shape in the same place.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:12 pm 
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Dan K wrote:
The Japanese mounted their cables in several ways. One appears to be the rectangular (in cross-section) box we see on Chokai's hull in 1942 that runs under the torpedo tube openings in the hull. It's possible that what we are seeing today is the back of that same box enclosure still attached to the hull. I feel it's too much of a coincidence to have the same shape in the same place.


hi, Came late home from a karaoke gathering from town. :)
One thing I failed to understand is "the back of that same box enclosure", what is this at all? and what for is my question.
Re. fitting of the cable IJN made it a practice to keep a distance between fairleads ,other fittings like supporting backets of smoke screen gear and the cable itself. If this is the old one, it conflicts with the place of the supporting brackets of the smokesceen mount. Therefore,the old(former) cable should not be there as pointed out with several red arrows on Maya´s stern area.
Re. material for the cover of the cable they used trees first, then began to use metals.This wouldnt corrode easilly and can still remain there.
Re. cover for the cable of Furutaka, if they were made of tree materials, they would get off quickly or corrode fast, will be my and the then IJN ship crews´ view.
Some more will be posted after this.
cheers,

ps:if the old cable is removed, IJN will take off the stoppers, repaint the surface of the stern,to be ready for sea battle, so sea water will not get into small holes.I doubt this as the old ones, but they do looke like stoppers, indeed.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:27 pm 
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Hi , again.I felt a need for rechecking on some of the Chokai´s photos.
The copper cable-lines are seen peeled out from the cover.(a)
The position of the degaussing cable is here just below the portholes(b)
I can safely say this "material" is not just something, but this is the top of strengthening patch of steel, not the cable cover, rest assured.(c)

Would like to refer to other pics of her later here,coz the pic of the anchor recess area is still a mystery at least for me.

regards,


Attachments:
ASIchecking cable Aa.jpg
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Last edited by Mutsuo Sasaki on Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:49 pm 
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SilverGhost wrote:
Mutsuo Sasaki wrote:
By looking into the R/V Petrel´s photos in the above I took a time in re-arranging the cable of Chokai around the stern, 1944 and on the drawing as a side task to do, so the cable here runs below the place of the ship name plate.

cheers,


I think - the draw has mistake
The cable may be upper. You can see here - 2 rows of mounts run parallel across the stern.
------------
thank you for the reply.
I´m not sure if they are the mounts or not. If the cable had been blown off ,for ex. metal stoppers used to stop the cable with will very likely be torn off ,and only the holes(by drilling) will remain on the surface. This will be the reason why I´m doubting it. Besides, if they did remove the cable at dockyard, they would treat the surface to restore it; the same explanation is posted with regard to my answer to Dan.

added now:
Also checked other images of Chokai pic under loop, just to prevent misunderstandings from occuring.
Still the bow/anhor recess photo is enigmatic to me, still.

regards,


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:19 pm 
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hi, again.
There seems to be some more pics of Chokai.I may remind you of this point that these two pics do not show the cable, the metals in yellow circle are strengthening patches of steel.

From this angle it is difficult to see the cable,it is to be fixed alongside the bulged line of the torpedoe compartment and onto the patch of steels.And the torpedoe-explosion effect which can blast the vulnerable cable way, too.
Can show this using the Chokai model if necessary at all.
cheers,


Attachments:
ASIIJN Chokai -[17]c.jpg
ASIIJN Chokai -[17]c.jpg [ 65.59 KiB | Viewed 579 times ]
ASIIJN Chokai -[19].jpg
ASIIJN Chokai -[19].jpg [ 58.29 KiB | Viewed 579 times ]


Last edited by Mutsuo Sasaki on Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:34 pm 
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other pic of Chokai under scrutiny is here:
When the degaussing cable gets ripped off or removed after some years, it leaves dark color on the surface. This will be the case with Chokai´s, too. Ocean wave is another factor to impair the cable. It used to get damaged after a battle voyage.

About the stern of Chokai, the old cable position proposed will not be correct. The cable cover ought to have a width of 30cm. I think this will not be the trace of the cable.Please look at a newly attached image where it is only 20 cm high= not the cable.


cheers,
------------------------
ad addendum:
1) I think you gentlemen are probably forgetting about the blast impact of torpdedoes on the starboard side hull by Fujjinami.Will the degausssing cable remain then? I shouldn´t think so.

2)Re.question of the anchor recess area being void of the cable,this is one of the places which is to be affected severely by waves much more frequently than the midtersection at each battle voyage, and is to be treated and repainted acccordingly when refitting it with a new cable.= a less chance of occurring of dark color of streak, is my opinion.


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checking cable E.jpg
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ASIchecking cable F.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:14 pm 
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Temporarilly judging from closer observations of those photos I´m figuring out that the portside degaussing cable remains intact with exception of some being torn apart,and some missing at the stern´s outer planking which is apparently indented due to bomb or shell hit,the cable with cover there could have been blown off by it....

But the starboard side cable didn´t escape from it for the most or the entire part...

The image of Chokai model will show the patches of steel for the purpose of strengtening are here.
The cable ought to be placed much lower,and below the portholes,as shown in the images.

cheers,


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:03 am 
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Not sure if this has been posted before but......................a 'fly-around' of a 3D rendition of Takao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqFXVa1zSaY

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:27 am 
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hi, all
Here are other images which will show the way how the degaussing cable is laid differently between Chokai and Maya.

In general the cable will have to be lowered where there are handling areas of fairleads, boat davits, stairways, mooring boom,etc. as safety measures. Re. Maya´s portside it will be partially difficult to see the cable because the hull is painted with camouflage colors. Means Maya already had the camou at that time.

Just f.y.i. the cable itself has a width of 25cm , 9 coiled wires of copper, 19,9mm in diameter, to be laid at a certain interval. At the outlet area there are 9x2= 18 coiled wires.The cover becomes wider here, accordingly. The power comes from an el. distributor inside of the main bridge(Takao class, Tone class) Kako and Aoba class will be different.(from power supply of the search lights)

Width of 25 cm may expand to 30cm when it is covered with 1,5cm thick tree material ,plus margin of 1cm each.
The cable on the Chokai model here on the portside is way too wide,am gonna mend it later.

cheers


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ASIMaya damage 700dpi a.jpg
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ASIIMG_0313chokai.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:42 am 
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Some elements of importance were taken into considerations yesterday night.
Hiragana letters of the ship name are 50 cm below the deck. Size of the letters are : 60cm tall.
The wedge line of the outer hull plate is 150cm below the deck.
The streak circled with orange color is a natural phenomenon? or artificially made?
The cable with cover might have been layed here, and it conincides with the line of this white streak.

Maya´s degaussing cable will be like this;therefore it is impossible to see the cable in the photo of the midter section of the hull. I should think that the cable ´s not being visible does not follow that there´s no cable attached to the hull.

cheers,


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ASIIJN Chokai -[21]nyc.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:28 am 
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I came across probably a misleading image of R/V Petrel when released last year.
My first impression was that the shape of bow did not look like that of Takao class.
Ofc the tip of the bow is stuck into the sand bottom.The degaussing cable is also in the sand.

cheers,


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:08 pm 
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Lastly,the pic will show how Chokai and Maya may differ in the way the degausssing cable is arranged around the midtersetion.

cheers,


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:16 pm 
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Mutsuo Sasaki

Hi Mutsuo!
Thank you for your detailed answers and ideas!
I more carefully reviewed all the photos of the Chokai at the sea depth, measured the dimensions of the details.
And I came to the conclusion that I agree with you - the degaussing circuit was at Chokai when he was sunk.

In places U-shaped (or П-shaped) brackets for attaching the cable box to the hull are still preserved.
If cable and cable box were removed, the brackets would also be removed too.

It remains to understand 2 things:
1. From which element were the rectangular fastenings/mounts at the stern? The distance between which was 19 cm
2. Why when Furutaka sunk after torpedo hits, the cable stayed at hull? Whereas when sunk Chokai after torpedo hits, the cable was ripped off the hull. It is strange...

Andrew

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:44 pm 
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Mutsuo Sasaki wrote:
1) I think you gentlemen are probably forgetting about the blast impact of torpdedoes on the starboard side hull by Fujjinami.Will the degausssing cable remain then? I shouldn´t think so.


If cable ripped off from starboard as the result of blast impact of torpdedoes (on the starboard side hull by Fujjinami). Why cable ripped off from portside?
The torpedoes hit only to starboard. Or not?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:51 pm 
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Mutsuo Sasaki wrote:
hi, all
Here are other images which will show the way how the degaussing cable is laid differently between Chokai and Maya.

In general the cable will have to be lowered where there are handling areas of fairleads, boat davits, stairways, mooring boom,etc. as safety measures. Re. Maya´s portside it will be partially difficult to see the cable because the hull is painted with camouflage colors. Means Maya already had the camou at that time.

Just f.y.i. the cable itself has a width of 25cm , 9 coiled wires of copper, 19,9mm in diameter, to be laid at a certain interval. At the outlet area there are 9x2= 18 coiled wires.The cover becomes wider here, accordingly. The power comes from an el. distributor inside of the main bridge(Takao class, Tone class) Kako and Aoba class will be different.(from power supply of the search lights)

Width of 25 cm may expand to 30cm when it is covered with 1,5cm thick tree material ,plus margin of 1cm each.
The cable on the Chokai model here on the portside is way too wide,am gonna mend it later.

cheers


Thank you for interesting photo of Maya!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:02 pm 
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Mutsuo Sasaki wrote:
Some elements of importance were taken into considerations yesterday night.
Hiragana letters of the ship name are 50 cm below the deck. Size of the letters are : 60cm tall.
The wedge line of the outer hull plate is 150cm below the deck.
The streak circled with orange color is a natural phenomenon? or artificially made?
The cable with cover might have been layed here, and it conincides with the line of this white streak.

Maya´s degaussing cable will be like this;therefore it is impossible to see the cable in the photo of the midter section of the hull. I should think that the cable ´s not being visible does not follow that there´s no cable attached to the hull.

cheers,


I think the streak circled with orange color is the top edge of outer plate.

I agree with you, that Maya's cable was located in middle lower than at Chokai. This is noticeable at the photo after the damage in January 1943.

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