The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:44 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 471 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 24  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 1644
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Rick,

You are right. They were taken at New York Shipbuilding in Camden, NJ. Look at the two inclining experiment photos (attached) dated 30 May 1942.

In the first is that unique crane with the four-level angled base. It is in the other photos. The second photo shows the long building with the smaller roof-top cabin that is in the photo you posted.

The inclining experiment photos were taken at the place along the quay parallel to the long building where the other ship was located in the pictures posted earlier. Then the Cleveland was moved around the corner for the second series of photos.

I don't have any inclining experiment photos of the Columbia to see if it was the "other" ship. They would have the Cleveland in the background.

****

Those 5"/38 mounts and shields could have been "surplus" from the CVL conversions. The Independence CVL-22 (ex Amsterdam), Princeton CVL-23 (ex Tallahassee), Belleau Wood CVL-24 (ex New Haven), Cowpens CVL-25 (ex Huntington), Monterrey CVL-36 (ex Dayton), Langley CVL-27 (ex Crown Point, ex Fargo), and Cabot CVL-28 (ex Wilmington) were all under construction at NYSB in Camden at the time the Cleveland photos were made. The Independence and Princeton were pretty far along at the time of the Cleveland photos - they are probably the two CVLs visible in the background of the photo you posted. Twelve shields equals two converted CLs.

Phil


Attachments:
Cleveland at NYSB 1.jpg
Cleveland at NYSB 1.jpg [ 134.74 KiB | Viewed 3881 times ]
Cleveland at NYSB 2.jpg
Cleveland at NYSB 2.jpg [ 125.41 KiB | Viewed 3881 times ]

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:29 pm
Posts: 1950
The CVL's in the above photo labeled "NYSC_01.JPG" are Saipan and Wright. That would put that photo later than Aug '45.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3825
Dick,

Thanks. I searched for images of NYSB hopefully during WWII and that one was the LARGEST Hi-Res image available ... BUT none of the images I thought would answer the question here, had a date as to when the photo was taken. :smallsmile:

More images I have to UPDATE the captions.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:42 pm
Posts: 165
The camouflage on the Cleveland picture just above, does anyone know which that is?

_________________
Mike, MikeyBugs


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:55 pm
Posts: 3125
Location: Hawaii
MikeyBugs wrote:
The camouflage on the Cleveland picture just above, does anyone know which that is?


Ms 12 Modified

_________________
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984

Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 1644
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Rick and Dick,

Seems you have poked around in the National Archives a bit, so maybe you can answer some questions for me. I would like to visit myself but I live in Oregon and running back and forth across the continent is pretty costly, especially since I hate flying the cattle cars in the sky and there don't seem to be any good hotels within walking distance to the Archives in Maryland.

I have all of the Cleveland class blueprints that I can get from the Archives on microfilm. I have been poring over these for a decade now and I have found that a lot of the drawings are missing from the microfilm. I'd guess that maybe 25% of the drawings listed as reference drawings on the sheets aren't on the microfilm. None of the square bridge blueprints are available on microfilm.

Are there collections of paper blueprints for the Clevelands? Do they include the square bridge modifications?

Another thing I have searched for with no luck are blueprints for the 5"/38 and 6"/47 guns and carriages (the guns themselves, not the gun houses and turrets). Would they be somewhere in the archives?

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3825
Phil,

I have not personally, and I know that Dick hasn't been to NARA II so he can't, have reviewed in person what paper drawings that NARA has for the CLEVELAND class. I have gone through many paper destroyer plans at NARA II and they can be a mixed bag. Most are blueprint BGP copies, but sometimes there are original mylar drawings used for making the blueprint BGP's. Also, other plans turn-up in files for a ship that may be useful. Pre-WWII ships had what are called "Portfolio" (PORT) Contract Design drawings used for sending out with requests for contract proposals and the drawings are pretty detailed. Many times these drawings are early and don't reflect what gets built many months later. It looks like the CLEVELAND class don't have PORT drawings ... http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/nara/shippl ... folios.htm ... HOWEVER, I notice that this list doesn't show PORT drawings for FLETCHERS and I know those exist because I have copied them. Also, other random plans are found in the "paper" drawings. The only real way to know is to go through every ship file in the class to find out. With some 24 ships in the class, that could take awhile with each Pull (about 4-5 pulls in a day) limited to ten drawings each (one BGP counts as ONE, but each original paper drawing "roll" counts as ONE as well). When I was going through destroyers, it took me several trips to get through ALL the FLETCHERS (175 ships, but there were not drawings in their collection for ALL of them) and some of the other destroyers folders. Normally the "engineering drawings" for individual ships are only available on microfilm ... which you say you have already been to. Why drawings would be missing, I don't know.

I can't give you a better idea of what is available until I can look in the master drawings lists at NARA in reference books they have there (I have NEVER had much luck looking on-line through NARA files via their system ... I can't even find things I KNOW that are there and WHERE).

I don't know what may be available in BuShips Textual records.

I have not tried looking for gun mount drawings. These would be under Ordnance rather than BuShips files, so I'm unsure where they would be located. I see from the listing on hnsa ... http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/nara/shipplans/ordnance.htm ... that there should be drawings available at NARA for the guns you are looking for.

The good thing, is that scanning of paper drawings in digital format is pretty reasonable at NARA ... paper copies is another matter!!

You can try to hire a pro researcher, but that can be pricey, the best way is an in person visit to NARA. Depending on the skill and knowledge set of the pro researcher (some have no idea of drawings), a lot of time is spent on their part (and the meter is running) learning and back-and-forth with YOU trying to get to what you want. I know that getting to Maryland from the West Coast can be expensive, but a week long trip would help on your quest and even if you don't get everything in one trip, you can narrow down your focus of requests to a pro researcher and/or direct requests from NARA to get the balance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 1644
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Rick,

Thanks.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:54 pm 
Offline
Model Monkey
Model Monkey

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:27 pm
Posts: 3952
Location: USA
An improved 3D-printed bridge for the Pit Road/Skywave 1/700 scale USS Miami CL-89 kit is now available.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=161903

_________________
Have fun, Monkey around.™

-Steve L.

Complete catalog: - https://www.model-monkey.com/
Follow Model Monkey® on Facebook: - https://www.facebook.com/modelmonkeybookandhobby


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:25 am
Posts: 2256
Location: Los Angeles and Houston
These would be purely Late-war Bridges for the Clevelands, no?

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 3825
Your question is a little confusing. Are you asking about bridge types?

There were two "major" bridge designs on CLEVELAND class cruisers. The first seven units, CL-55 through 58, 60, 62, and 63 had the original "Round Face" design. The remaining units had the revised "Square Face" bridge design. None of the Round-Bridge units was modified to the Square-Bridge design.

Since both groups were operational in "Late WWII" and some changes were made during the war, there isn't technically a Late-War design. The Round-Bridge units went through several iterations while being built/upgraded. The bridge replacements that ModelMonkey is offering is to replace the Square-Bridge parts molded for the Pitroad (and now Midships) USS MIAMI kits with more accurate parts.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:25 am
Posts: 2256
Location: Los Angeles and Houston
The later Clevelands, though, were not commissioned until 1944, though, were they?

MB

_________________
OMG LOOK! A signature

Working on:


1/700 (All Fall 1942):
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Aoba & Kinugasa
USS San Francisco
USS Helena
USS St. Louis
USS Laffey & Farenholt
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 4 - 7
HIJMS Sub-Chasers No. 13 - 16


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 1644
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
For commissioning dates see the Cleveland Class history at:

http://www.okieboat.com/Cleveland%20Cla ... story.html

Some of the higher numbered ships were commissioned in 1943 before lower numbered ships that were commissioned in 1944. Hull numbers were assigned at the time the contracts were awarded, not when the ships were launched or commissioned. Four shipyards built the Clevelands, and some were faster that the others. So the ships were not commissioned in hull number sequence.

To clarify, all Clevelands from CL-55 through CL63 had the round bridge armored pilot house configuration (there was no CL 59 or CL-61). From USS Vincennes CL-64 on the Clevelands had the square bridge without the armored pilot house. The armored pilot house was removed to save weight. From CL-66 on the aluminum superstructure was replaced with steel so the aluminum could be used for airplanes. There were other significant differences between the original Clevelands and the later Vincennes versions.

Some people consider the Fargos to be a late war Cleveland class, and some consider them to be a class of their own. I think the Fargos were as different from the Clevelands as the Clevelands were from the earlier Brooklyn/St.Louis class. Clevelands were a modification of the Brooklyn design, and the Fargos were a modification of the Cleveland design.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:14 am
Posts: 17
Looking for 6in(150mm)47 gun barrels for USS Springfield a Providence Class Guided Missile Cruiser. I believe 6in(150mm)47 From Cleveland class could also be used. Have found 5.5 and 8in guns but no 6.
Any info would be deeply appreciated. Sorry for not being more specific in earlier post


Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Thu May 19, 2016 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Merged into Cleveland Class thread


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:14 am
Posts: 17
The USS SPRINFIELD IS 1/500 built back in late 60s. Can't find any gun barrels in that scale.
Can only find 1/700 parts. Any ideas on substitions?


Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Thu May 19, 2016 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Merged into Cleveland Class thread


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:39 am
Posts: 2025
Location: Harlan, Kentucky, U.S.A.
Though far from an expert, very far, in fact, on U.S.N. cruisers I have to say that I have always considered the Cleveland class ships to be some of the best looking warships of World War II. Sleek, well armed, fast. The very epitome of a fast ship going in harm's way. I do hope that now that Dragon seems to be getting back into the warship business with the upcoming release of the Alaska class that we will see more cruisers of all classes offered up in injection molding in 1/350. They would also be good candidates for 1/200 scale offerings as they would not take up as much shelf space as an Iowa class BB or a carrier, but still offer the opportunity to market a well detailed model of a sadly overlooked subject. I do see some new cruisers on the market as I browse through the inventory of my favorite vendors, two Indianapolis's, at least one RN cruiser as I recall, and I would have to add in the Alaskas, as I would argue they are more cruiser than BB.

Bob M.

_________________
Give me a fast ship, for I would like to get out of harm's way!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 1644
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
CLOATH,

All of the original Clevelands and the modified Talos/Terrier CLGs had the same 6"/47 guns and turrets.

BUT

There are some differences. Some of the ships had rangefinders on the #1 turret, but these were left off on later ships to reduce topside weight. None of the CLGs had rangefinders on the #1 turret.

Probably the greatest difference was the location and number of ladders on the turrets. Some ships had two or four ladders up the face of the turret around the guns, and some had a ladder on the back of the turret.

One other variation is the size of the vents on the back side of the turrets. Somewhere along the line these vents (port and starboard) became wider at the vent opening. I haven't taken time to figure out when this change occurred but be sure to check photos of the USS Springfield CLG-7.

Different ships had different arrangements for the bars welded to the turret tops/sides that canvas awnings were attached to. Again, consult the photos. I doubt if any of the CLGs had exactly the same configurations for the 6"/47 turrets, although the base structure was the same for all ships.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:42 pm
Posts: 165
I, personally, would love to see a 1/200 Cleveland class. Preferably with the option for round or square bridge in the same box. It would definitely be on the small side, it would still be over 3 feet long, and at least be a bit cheaper than those large carriers and battleship.

_________________
Mike, MikeyBugs


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:01 am
Posts: 1644
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Mike,

I would buy a 1:200 Cleveland kit if it was well made. However, there were several major and many minor changes between the different versions of the Clevelands, and it would be hard to make a "one kit fits all" version - or at least very expensive. I don't think any two of the 27 ships were alike.

In addition to the change from the round armored pilot house on the earlier ships to the square bridge version, the 5"/38 mounts #4 and #5 were moved aft two or three frames - 8 to 12 feet - so the aft deck houses were significantly different. There were significant differences in the turrets, type of 5"/38 mounts, smoke pipes, radars, directors, boat cranes and ships boats, aircraft cranes and aircraft, and the number and placement of the 20mm and 40mm guns.

It probably would be possible to make a kit that could be built as one of the earlier version or one of the later version.

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:42 pm
Posts: 165
Frankly, I'd just like to see a kit with just the basics to start. I would say use as the round bridge the Cleveland and as the square either the Vincennes or Miami. But then again, these are the only Clevelands that come to mind at the moment. So really, just start out with 1 ship per type (round/square bridges) and the either expand from there or provide separate sets to convert from 1 ship to the others like Vincennes to Miami.

_________________
Mike, MikeyBugs


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 471 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 24  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 52 guests


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group